Greg G. wrote:
Tim Daneliuk said:

Greg G. wrote:
They work on paper because the voodoo priests... er... "economists"
who devise such schemes are beholden to the ones who pay for said
research. They game the system now, and you can bet they will game the
system should it be altered. But you're right, Charlie; almost any
truly equitable scheme would be a vast improvement over the current
system of loopholes and imbalances.

The thing that bothers me most about the "Fair Tax" proposals are the
people who devised it (a herd of Texas millionaires), and the
Oh no! Millionaires were involved. Gasp! Clearly, we'd be better
off listening the Lazy Larry or Connie The Crackwhore when it comes
to economic ideas ... not the people who actually know how to create
wealth.

Hmm... Create wealth. I don't believe you can "create" such a thing,
but you can certainly move the existing wealth around until you have
accumulated much of it. Historically, Barons reaped their fortunes by
exploiting the poor and impoverished. Coal mines, railroads, slaves,
plantations, tobacco, etc. Today we have third world workers, brokers
who churn retirement accounts, disreputable mortgage companies, and
the military industrial complex. Yeah, sure - I trust 'em.

So ... there is today no more "wealth" than there was, say, a
thousand years ago? You are kidding yourself. Wealth is
measured not by "perception" (but "price" is). Wealth is a
direct measure of *productivity* - by an individual, organization,
or nation. The poorest man in the West today, would have been
quite rich by ancient or even medieval standards simply because
the poor man today is part of a much more productive nation
than any of his predecessors.



proclivity of the well heeled to bypass said taxes - bartering would
become the new untaxed currency amongst the well connected.
This is so absurd on its face that I had to read it repeatedly to
see if you were serious. I would love to see the day that
the Eeeeeeeeeevillll Millionaires "barter" their way into an expensive
house, exclusive car, or private jet. BTW, the bartering problem
*already* exits among the mooching middle class that
already wants everyone else to pay for its goods and still works
on a "cash" basis whenever it can hire illegals or other entry level
workers for gardening, home improvement or construction.

Nowhere did I use the term Eeeevil millionaires. I have known quite a
few over the years. And like all people, some were OK, some were
backstabbing asshats I wouldn't trust with loose change.

Agreed. All I meant was that wealth does not innately make
someone bad or dishonest.

Unfortunately, those who are attracted to positions of power are
generally arrogant asshats out for themselves. And I've seen plenty of
bartering going on already. Along with plenty of shady real estate
deals for political favor.

As opposed to, say, the "honest" middle class that wants to
steal the wealth of the very rich to pay for their schools,
parks, libraries, and swimming pools? Oh please.


As for the mooching middle class, I know not of what you speak. I
don't know anyone who gets anything from the government or expects (or
gets) anything for free. If they're lucky, they get what they pay
for. That, and way more bad government than they deserve.

Oh really? Over half the Federal budget is entitlements of
one sort or another. Every single one of the recipients of
these - including Social Security and Medicare - will almost
certainly take more out of the system than they ever put in.
And that's just one example ... there are many more.


The "illegals" problem was originally the domain of the wealthy. As
well, I don't know any middle class people who own nationwide
homebuilding companies who employ large numbers of "illegals" for
construction. They might hire a guy to mow their lawn or fix the

Who are largely middle-class ... the builders, I mean.

dangling gutter, but the massive employment in the construction
industry (as well as poultry, agriculture, labor in general) is still
the domain of well heeled developers who not only hire illegals, but
effect zoning laws and code enforcement through bribery, throw up
crap, sell it as quick as possible with the aid of similarly corrupt
mortgage companies, and then fold to avoid liability.
Maybe it's a southern thing...

Maybe you never built your own company. I have. Try it sometime
and get back to us on how easy all this lying cheating and stealing
is to achieve instant success.


(Like there's not enough good ol' boy "favor" swapping ongoing at
present - particularly in political circles. They'll simply groom it
to new depths of impropriety.)
This is likely true but you have root cause all confused here.
The reason there is political favor swapping has nothing to do
with just *how* taxes are collected. It has to do with how *much*
the Federal government, especially, is asked to "do for the sheeple".

Not confused at all. The root cause is avarice. As for the Feds, they
don't do **** for me, nor anyone I know. Except, however, take quite a
bit for their trouble. And then pass it on to the Princes,
Halliburtons, and Blackwaters of the world. I know no Cadillac driving
welfare queens either, but I DO know a numerous people who profit at
taxpayer expense from insider connections with political families.


Once again, the facts are your friends. The Halliburtons of this
world are rounding error in the Federal budget. Social do-gooding
dominates the budget, not corporate handouts.


The Feds - without any Constitution permissions - have created a
third-wheel to the economy that gives political vermin and their
hangers-on a reason to raid the coffers of the government: There
is a *lot* of money to be stolen. Get the government back to its
Constitutionally mandated size, and people won't be so eager to
waste time in Washington D.C. fighting over a much smaller treasury.
As I said, this has nothing to do with how we collect taxes and far
more to do with how the population at large uses government as a proxy
to raid each others' wallets.

I agree with this much. And don't forget the Federal Reserve System.


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Tim Daneliuk
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