"Trevor Jones" wrote in message
news:WyU3j.15039$HH2.3107@edtnps82...
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is getting
them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a part that
states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that it calls
for,
not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast work on the low
tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec.


That is a common argument with people of today, and I propose to you
that's
exactly one of the reasons why it's so hard to find qualified people.
If
you think you can turn out work running from one end of the tolerance to
the
other and become a fine machinist in the process, you've missed
something,
somewhere.


I dunno if yer gettin the level of this.

Oh, but I am. You're trying to make money, and he's trying to learn.. They
don't often go hand in hand.


Had a guy using the mill to cut off a bunch of mild steel, to be used as
spacers in a weldement.

Late in the day, he was still at making his dozen parts. Wanted to know
where the stock was. I had pointed him at two full sticks, earlier that
day.

I found them, cut into tidy pieces, in the scrap bin. HE did not like
that the parts were only within 5 thou of the dimension that was on the
page, so he was still trying to get it bang-on. I kicked his sorry ass out
to the dumpster, and told him to use the ****ing cutting torch like he had
been told in the first place. The guy was about to cut up another full
bar, to get dimensions that were WAY beyond the tolerances required.

And this person has extensive experience? He's likely in the process of
learning, and has yet to distinguish that which is important. If his
mindset is as you suggest, he likely will make one of the best
machinists--when he has enough experience. It doesn't come by hack work.
If I had a guy that displayed what you described, I'd move him to work in
keeping with his desires, so he'd hone his skills.


I had to watch, pretty much in agony, while another guy spent two days
making 8 bushings. They were to be cold shrunk in. Aluminum. 5/8 inch 7075
barstock. Looks like a countersunk head screw, with a hole through the
middle. Tolerances are to within 2-5 tenths. Two ****ing whole days!
Should have taken him about 8 minutes per bushing. Less, if he was able to
think at a speed that would allow him to breathe and walk at the same
time. That was AFTER I ground the form tool, and set up the lathe, and
demonstrated the making of the first one (which came out as a useable
bushing BTW)

And this guy is a journeyman? You may be able to do it that way, but he
must learn the process before he can. I share your frustration, but to
expect a level of performance in keeping with a journeyman, assuming he's
not one, is a tall order. As I said, these people may turn out to be good
machinists, but if they are shown nothing but hack work, they WILL struggle
when they must do fine work, just as I described previously. You just
presented a perfect example, assuming he's really trying.


Nothing wrong with being willing to do good work. I just have little
patience for those that do not put a little effort into applying a
reasonable level of appropriate work into the job in front of them. Trying
to work to tenths, on a job that could be marked in crayon and cut with a
torch, is an innappropriate use of time and facilities.
And there are some people that are in over their heads, emptying garbage
cans.

You must sort those that can from those that can't------and it's not often
evident which is which. I'm living proof.



Mind you, I'm not here to tell you how to work, nor how to formulate your
work ethic------but one thing I can and will tell you is if you turn out
every job using hack processes, you'll never be a decent machinist. When
challenged to do the type of work I mentioned, you'll be at a loss, and
will
have success mainly from good fortune, if at all. That isn't at all
how I
worked----and would have proven to be my downfall had I.

I try to do good work all the time. Less comebacks. Equals less headaches
for me. We have, historically, always been able to find the time to fix
stuff that was done poorly, in a rush. By that alone, I figure we have the
time to do it right the first time.

Exactly my thoughts------but there may be a huge difference in what you find
acceptable and what I find acceptable. Our backgrounds may not have a great
deal in common-----so it's hard to judge your position. I never promoted
the concept of dashing through a job by sacrificing quality, but I was in
complete control, unlike you, where you are at the mercy of the abilities of
others.


I have no problem
with being a surly prick, when dealing with guys trying to pressure me to
get something done in a hurry, or to take shortcuts, either.

That is not an issue. If a person doesn't want a job done well, they had
the wrong shop. No guarantee it would turn out perfectly as they might
desire, but if not, it wasn't because my best effort hadn't been applied.
Again, if you learn to do good work, you can usually turn it out just as
fast as a hacker, but with quality. BUT-----and this is important------it
must be practiced. The reward comes long afterwards, when jobs aren't
returned because of defective workmanship. Of course, in today's
society, I'm not sure anyone knows the difference. They sure as hell did
when I was engaged in machining, that you can believe.

I had one boss that developed a bit of a twitch. When he would ask how
long a job was going to take, I would give it some thought, and tell him,
"two weeks". Got to the point where he stopped asking me. The work got
done faster, without the interuptions. He was happier, I was happier.

A good manager won't make his presence known, assuming you're doing your
work properly. He/she fully expects you'll make him/her look good, so
they'll be very supportive of you and your decisions. If you find that's not
how things are, you must explore yourself, and him/her, to determine which
is lacking.


The time you spend learning how to work closely is the time needed to
hone
skills that are required to do so. Those that don't spend the time will
generally suffer when it comes time to do fine work.

We do a lot of small, cold shrunk, then reamed to size, bushings in our
shop. Tolerances to a couple tenths are typical, if you want them to work
out. We have enough guys here that are able to produce at those levels,
that we are able to carry on.

Then that's where the work should go-------unless you feel a need to bring
along younger guys. A well run shop will qualify their workers for all
tasks, however. You never know when you'll lose a key employee----the very
guy that handles the tough work. You have to suffer through a few of those
guys that are striving to hold that .005" tolerance you suggested was a
waste of time. That's how they learn.


In our shop, that is the kind of job that requires the fine work, and the
fine work is applied. There is nought to gain, and much time to be spent,
trying to apply the same work to putting points on steel grounding stakes,
or on other jobs that could have as well been done with angle grinders or
cutting torches.

Doesn't sound like a place for a machinist.

There's a big difference between a place that requires a machinist, and a
place that machines a little metal, if you get my drift. A good example
is a generator (automotive) shop. They turn armatures regularly, but the man
running the miserable little lathe is hardly a machinist. Yet he gets the
armatures turned and undercut.

It's all in your perspective, isn't it!

Harold