"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
...
Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
...

snip

Inger,

Let's say Bardason did collect the bowl from Vinland. What
evidence do you have that it would have been _made_ in Vinland?


Only the word of a medicineman of the tribe that mined the silver that
the
Norse traded silver over to Greenland and beyond..

Inger,

Will you tell me who this medicine man was, what tribe he
belonged to, and when his story was recorded?

It's his story to tell when he and I have gone thru all we know on both
sides about contacts in Pre-Columbian days. You see there is an artifact
which an other tribe was given in mid 14th century involved in our
discussions. But as I said: It's his story for him to tell. Which he will
when he feel the time is right.

But as you might
understand the essential factor isn't were the coconut origined from,
nor who brought the coconut or the coconut shell to Vinland,

Well, if you are telling me that the bowl was made in North
America, it would be essential to know how the shell got there.

Why? That doesn't alter the fact that the silvered coconut bowl was
collected by Ivar Bardson in Vinland as part of the tithes for Vinland in
1354-1364.


Your assertions about Texas, Florida and the Caribbean to the
contrary, I still haven't seen valid evidence that coconuts
existed in North America or the Caribbean before the Spanish
Conquista, much less ~150 years earlier.

Have you read all Spaniards and others documents?

but we also know that such an item wasn't among the reliks the Vatican
sent
to the dioceses under Gardar.

Why would it have had to have been a relic sent by the Vatican?

It isn't. That's the fact.

Why could it not have been a gift from a wealthy person in
Norway, or a personal item brought by a trader or immigrant to
Greenland?

The valuable items made in Europe that made it's way to Greenland are well
documented in ships-papers.
The bowl came from Vinland via Greenland. Not from the later. Accept that.


Surely you don't insist that all high-status items
in Greenland and Vinland had to have been sent by the Vatican to
church authorities under Gardar?

Well the fact is that if anything valuable such as silver and gold, books
and wine for that matters was sent from England, France(Flandern mostely) or
Norway it's noted. From the two former they needed acceptance to trade with
the Greenlanders. But the silvered coconut bowl was brought back from
Vinland by Ivar Bardson. You better accept that.

Do you remember that I sent you the diploma texts for those three years
ago?
If not we can take that discussion in a later thread-not here.


I don't recall that you did send such, but in any case as I
told you, I've lost any copies that I had on my computer, and
had to erase my Zip disks to try to save what I could from
another computer mishap.

We also know that one more such bowl was taken via Greenland to Iceland.
Does we know who the goldsmith was? NO. While I do know that Iceland
between
1050 and 1400 had splendid goldsmiths working in gold and silver I
haven't
seen that epitet/title given to anyone who lived in Greenland or passed
on
to NA. Do I believe that the silvered bowl could have been made by
Indians.
Definitely possible. That we don't know at all.

Are there any photos of the bowl that we can look at?

Of this one I don't know. Ask Goran if he knows about the other one.

Has the silver used in the bowl been analyzed as to its source?

???? Did you read what I wrote?????


What we do know as a fact is that Ivar Bardson collected the silvered
bowl
in Vinland as part of the tithes. We know he delievered it and the rest
of
the Tiundetaka(all tithes collected for the dioceses under Gardar See)
to
the Papal representant in Stavanger 1364.

From some of the English translations of relevant papal records
I've read, there was at least some gold and silver in Greenland
at the relevant time. I don't know, but I suspect, that some
Greenlanders might have had personal items of precious metals.

Well they didn't take it with them from Norway. Nor was there any gold and
silver mines in Iceland at least not at the time. Only one gold item found
in Greenland recorded to have been made by a French(Parisian?) goldsmith and
that's a ring from 1500.



If the only thing we know to be a fact are that Bardason took a
coconut bowl from the Gardar see back to Norway as part of the
tithes owed by Gardar, and that the Vatican never sent such an
item to Gardar, how can we conclude that no such item was _ever_
brought to Greenland in some other way?

The normal People in Northern Scandinavia weren't especially wealthy in
those days you know. The Greenlanders seems to have lived a much better life
then their alikes in Scandinavia.




There was trade between Europe and Greenland; and if Vinland
were as vigorous a colony as you seem to believe, then there
would have been communication between Greenland and Vinland.


I guess you know that almost all scholars believe that the Greenland
trade
had faded in 1430's? That's not true as I showed in the diploma where
King
Erik called for the English to pay a large amount for not paying taxes
while
trading in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters and for the English pirates
stealing ships with valuable cargo? I guess you know that the Icelanders
had
good record for the sailing on Iceland. Had the English only been in
Icelandic waters many more English ships would have been noted in the
Annals.

On top of it all - the only two such bowls can be linked to be
transported
via Greenland. No such silvered bowls are noted to have been shipped
away
from the Old World and what you and others might not be aware of the
ship's
cargo and the lists from 14th century are much much better than you can
imagin.

Do the ships' manifests detail every item brought by every ship
and every passenger to Greenland? When valuable things were on the
agenda - more or less yes.

Are there no missing
manifests, or manifests that are unreadable in part?

Now you are on 'what if' scenarios again.
Accept that the silvered coconut bowl was collected in Vinland North
America. How the coconut that came to be used in production of a bowl was
brought there has nothing at all to do with the facts involved.


Was there no un-authorized trading? You tell us that English
pirates operated in that area. Do you insist that such an item
might not have been traded to Greenlanders by such pirates?

That un-authorized trading started after 1410. Not before.

Not to mention, of course, the many shipwrecks in Greenland
waters, which might have left cargo washed up on shore.

Now you are working with 'what if' scenario.
That has absolutely nothing what so ever to do with the silvered coconut
bowl! Vinland wasn't Greenland only one of the Greenlandic Bishop's dioceses
and it also had it's own Bishop in 1100's as well as in late 1400's and up
to 1521 AD.

Yes, these are 'what-if's'. But to date, you've given us no
evidence that requires the bowl, apparently much like other
bowls known from that time in Europe, to have been made in North
America.

Do you not believe Papal records from the time?

If you can provide such evidence (and I will stipulate
that you've heard some story about an unspecified medicine man
from an unspecified tribe that reported silver exports; and that
Ivar B. did transport a coconut bowl from Greenland to Norway as
part of the tithes of the Gardar see), I'll take a look at it.

You are in no position to call for that. Take that up with the Vatican
Archieves not with me. They have the origin documents. If you are allowed to
have access to them, or if you have a friend(which I have had) who are
allowed access to them, I can't say. It's not my thing to present anything
but the facts involved and show, which I have done, that there are scholars
who have written about the documents and noted the coconut bowl.

All speculations is for those who are working with 'what if'. 'What if' is
fiction, what was is reality.

Inger E