Inger E Johansson wrote:

"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
...

snip

Inger,

Let's say Bardason did collect the bowl from Vinland. What
evidence do you have that it would have been _made_ in Vinland?


Only the word of a medicineman of the tribe that mined the silver that the
Norse traded silver over to Greenland and beyond..

Inger,

Will you tell me who this medicine man was, what tribe he
belonged to, and when his story was recorded?

But as you might
understand the essential factor isn't were the coconut origined from,
nor who brought the coconut or the coconut shell to Vinland,

Well, if you are telling me that the bowl was made in North
America, it would be essential to know how the shell got there.
Your assertions about Texas, Florida and the Caribbean to the
contrary, I still haven't seen valid evidence that coconuts
existed in North America or the Caribbean before the Spanish
Conquista, much less ~150 years earlier.

but we also know that such an item wasn't among the reliks the Vatican sent
to the dioceses under Gardar.

Why would it have had to have been a relic sent by the Vatican?
Why could it not have been a gift from a wealthy person in
Norway, or a personal item brought by a trader or immigrant to
Greenland? Surely you don't insist that all high-status items
in Greenland and Vinland had to have been sent by the Vatican to
church authorities under Gardar?

Do you remember that I sent you the diploma texts for those three years ago?
If not we can take that discussion in a later thread-not here.


I don't recall that you did send such, but in any case as I
told you, I've lost any copies that I had on my computer, and
had to erase my Zip disks to try to save what I could from
another computer mishap.

We also know that one more such bowl was taken via Greenland to Iceland.
Does we know who the goldsmith was? NO. While I do know that Iceland between
1050 and 1400 had splendid goldsmiths working in gold and silver I haven't
seen that epitet/title given to anyone who lived in Greenland or passed on
to NA. Do I believe that the silvered bowl could have been made by Indians.
Definitely possible. That we don't know at all.

Are there any photos of the bowl that we can look at?

Has the silver used in the bowl been analyzed as to its source?

What we do know as a fact is that Ivar Bardson collected the silvered bowl
in Vinland as part of the tithes. We know he delievered it and the rest of
the Tiundetaka(all tithes collected for the dioceses under Gardar See) to
the Papal representant in Stavanger 1364.

From some of the English translations of relevant papal records
I've read, there was at least some gold and silver in Greenland
at the relevant time. I don't know, but I suspect, that some
Greenlanders might have had personal items of precious metals.

If the only thing we know to be a fact are that Bardason took a
coconut bowl from the Gardar see back to Norway as part of the
tithes owed by Gardar, and that the Vatican never sent such an
item to Gardar, how can we conclude that no such item was _ever_
brought to Greenland in some other way?



There was trade between Europe and Greenland; and if Vinland
were as vigorous a colony as you seem to believe, then there
would have been communication between Greenland and Vinland.


I guess you know that almost all scholars believe that the Greenland trade
had faded in 1430's? That's not true as I showed in the diploma where King
Erik called for the English to pay a large amount for not paying taxes while
trading in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters and for the English pirates
stealing ships with valuable cargo? I guess you know that the Icelanders had
good record for the sailing on Iceland. Had the English only been in
Icelandic waters many more English ships would have been noted in the
Annals.

On top of it all - the only two such bowls can be linked to be transported
via Greenland. No such silvered bowls are noted to have been shipped away
from the Old World and what you and others might not be aware of the ship's
cargo and the lists from 14th century are much much better than you can
imagin.

Do the ships' manifests detail every item brought by every ship
and every passenger to Greenland? Are there no missing
manifests, or manifests that are unreadable in part?

Was there no un-authorized trading? You tell us that English
pirates operated in that area. Do you insist that such an item
might not have been traded to Greenlanders by such pirates?

Not to mention, of course, the many shipwrecks in Greenland
waters, which might have left cargo washed up on shore.

Yes, these are 'what-if's'. But to date, you've given us no
evidence that requires the bowl, apparently much like other
bowls known from that time in Europe, to have been made in North
America. If you can provide such evidence (and I will stipulate
that you've heard some story about an unspecified medicine man
from an unspecified tribe that reported silver exports; and that
Ivar B. did transport a coconut bowl from Greenland to Norway as
part of the tithes of the Gardar see), I'll take a look at it.

Why do you insist that the bowl couldn't have come from Europe,
where these things were to be found at that time, and wound up
in Vinland, to be collected for the tithe and _returned_ to Europe?


That's a 'What if' scenario that has no bearing what so ever to actual
situation at that time. See above.

You've not given us conclusive evidence to say the bowl was
made in America. All we know for sure is that Bardason brought
such a thing to Europe from Greenland. Its provenance isn't
clear; if it is clear to you, either provide the evidence, or
stop saying that it the provenance is known.


Has the silver in the bowl been analyzed to pin-point its
origin? Or don't you know about this?


While the origin documents still exists I am not sure where the bowl is
after WWII. As so many other valuable things it's hard to tell where
everything went during the war.

That's not what I asked. I asked if the silver in the artifact
had been analyzed so as to pin-point its source.

BTW, is the sensitivity of some information around this issue
something to do with Nazi confiscation of treasure, and
questions of repatriation of same? If so, I'm not sure why the
secrecy; unless it is to protect the gnomes of Zurich, or
current owners of questionable items.

Tom McDonald