"Tom McDonald" skrev i meddelandet
...
Inger E Johansson wrote:

Doug,
I suggest that you learn how to read works of History and how to analyse
what's said and what's not said. I suggest that you read it carefully
and go
on to the sources mentioned. You did get the file(s) two days ago(?)
from
Goran. Didn't you? You haven't spent 1/10 of the time needed by any
given
scholar of History before you try to dismiss them.

Give up. Origin document still exists no matter when the works about it
were
written. It's definitely 100% certain that Ivar Bardson did collect a
silvered coconut bowl from Vinland North America 1364 to the Papal
Collector. You can't run away from this, you know. Nothing you say or
put
forward can dismiss this. You better accept it.

Inger E



Inger,

Let's say Bardason did collect the bowl from Vinland. What
evidence do you have that it would have been _made_ in Vinland?

Only the word of a medicineman of the tribe that mined the silver that the
Norse traded silver over to Greenland and beyond..But as you might
understand the essential factor isn't were the coconut origined from,
nor who brought the coconut or the coconut shell to Vinland,
but we also know that such an item wasn't among the reliks the Vatican sent
to the dioceses under Gardar.
Do you remember that I sent you the diploma texts for those three years ago?
If not we can take that discussion in a later thread-not here.

We also know that one more such bowl was taken via Greenland to Iceland.
Does we know who the goldsmith was? NO. While I do know that Iceland between
1050 and 1400 had splendid goldsmiths working in gold and silver I haven't
seen that epitet/title given to anyone who lived in Greenland or passed on
to NA. Do I believe that the silvered bowl could have been made by Indians.
Definitely possible. That we don't know at all.
What we do know as a fact is that Ivar Bardson collected the silvered bowl
in Vinland as part of the tithes. We know he delievered it and the rest of
the Tiundetaka(all tithes collected for the dioceses under Gardar See) to
the Papal representant in Stavanger 1364.

There was trade between Europe and Greenland; and if Vinland
were as vigorous a colony as you seem to believe, then there
would have been communication between Greenland and Vinland.

I guess you know that almost all scholars believe that the Greenland trade
had faded in 1430's? That's not true as I showed in the diploma where King
Erik called for the English to pay a large amount for not paying taxes while
trading in Icelandic and Greenlandic waters and for the English pirates
stealing ships with valuable cargo? I guess you know that the Icelanders had
good record for the sailing on Iceland. Had the English only been in
Icelandic waters many more English ships would have been noted in the
Annals.

On top of it all - the only two such bowls can be linked to be transported
via Greenland. No such silvered bowls are noted to have been shipped away
from the Old World and what you and others might not be aware of the ship's
cargo and the lists from 14th century are much much better than you can
imagin.


Why do you insist that the bowl couldn't have come from Europe,
where these things were to be found at that time, and wound up
in Vinland, to be collected for the tithe and _returned_ to Europe?

That's a 'What if' scenario that has no bearing what so ever to actual
situation at that time. See above.

Has the silver in the bowl been analyzed to pin-point its
origin? Or don't you know about this?

While the origin documents still exists I am not sure where the bowl is
after WWII. As so many other valuable things it's hard to tell where
everything went during the war.

Inger E

Tom McDonald