On Nov 11, 2:01 pm, w_tom wrote:
On Nov 11, 7:49 am, wrote:

..., but it doesn't mean that plug-in surge protectors don't work
or are useless. One of my favorites from w_tom is that all the
appliances already have surge protection inside. So, which
would MOV would you rather have take that big spike and
possible get blown out? A $15 surge protector or a $2000 TV?

Why let propaganda distort your thinking?

No need to worry, I'm not letting your propaganda distort my thinking.


If the MOV is blown out,
then it provided no protection. Nada. Effective protectors MUST
earth a surge and remain functional.

Following that logic, a blown fuse offers no protection either. It's
certainly possible for a MOV inside a plug-in surge protector to have
taken the biggest part of the surge, blowing it out, and the
protection inside the electronic appliance, acting in parallel, to
have also taken some of the surge, but not be destroyed.




Why does a plug-in protector
fail during a surge? Why is it so grossly undersized? That failure
promotes more sales. A surge way too small to overwhelm protection
inside that $2000 TV or dishwasher, instead, destroyed the grossly
undersized plug-in protector? What kind of protection is that?
Ineffective and so expensive. But the protector enriches the
manufacturer.

LOL. Let me get this straight. According to you, the minimal
protection inside electronic eqpt or an appliance is supposed to be
perfectly capable of stopping a surge, yet components capable of
disipating a similar or larger surge in a plug-in protector are
useless?



Plug-in protectors will even earth surges destructively through
adjacent appliances. Review Bud's citations.

Bud's citations say that plug-ins work.


A protector must earth
a surge - not absorb it.

No, in the case of a plug-in protector, as Bud outlined, the device
limits the differential between hot-neutral, neutral to ground, hot to
ground.




How does a plug-in protector earth without
a 'less than 10 foot' dedicated earthing wire? It does not. But then
it does not even claim such protection in its own numeric specs. Its
purpose is profits; not protection.

Take that up with the IEEE.




Learn why plug-in protectors may even earth surges destructively
through appliances. The surge must be earthed somewhere. Page 42
Figure 8 in
http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf

A plug-in protector too close to an appliance has earthed a surge
*8000 volts destructively* through an adjacent TV. Where is the
protection? That protector - earthing a surge through the TV - has
done what its manufacture claims. It does not claim to protect from
the type of surge that typically causes damage. By being grossly
undersized (ineffective), you have assumed a blown out protector
provided protection? A blown out protector even violates every MOV
manufacturer spec. Acceptable MOV failure means never vaporizing. But
vaporizing gets the naive to promote more profits - recommend those
grossly undersized protectors.

So, I can take any size/rating MOV and pass any size current through
it and if it fails, it violates the manufacturer's spec? What are
they, a miracle device?




A 'blown out' MOV is even a safety hazard - completely unacceptable.

Do you really believe it will absorb the energy from three miles of
lightning? They need you to 'feel' that one inch part stops or
absorbs what three miles of sky could not stop. Show me a single MOV
designed to do that - and good luck. Bud needs you to 'feel' it
protects by absorbing the entire surge - sacrificing itself.

You are the only one here talking about surge protectors "absorbing"
anything. You brought up the term.


If you
learn the science, then profits are at risk. No effective protector
does that stopping or absorbing. But when a plug-in protector is
undersized, scary pictures may result:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Art...Protectors.pdf
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html:
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol orhttp://www.esdjournal.com/techpapr/Pharr/INVESTIGATING%20SURGE%20SUPP...
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/


How is it that disaster results only from plug-in surge protectors and
not from similar protection that you crow about that is built into
electronic devices/appliances and located 4 ft away? Hmmm, neither
one has a close by earth ground, do they?



MOVs are no longer inside appliances because MOVs adjacent to the
appliance (on power cord or inside) are not effective. All appliances
have long contained internal protection - and no MOVs. MOVs must be
AT earth ground. Bud's citation even defines the effective
protector. From page 6 (Adobe page 8 of 24) of
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf

You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest"
it. What these protective devices do is neither suppress nor
arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground, where it can do
no harm. So a name that makes sense would be "surge
diverter" but it was not picked. So, for the rest of this booklet,
we will stick to the most popular "surge protector".

Where does it say anything about absorbing energy to be 'blown
out'? It does not. It *diverts* - and it remains functional. Blown
out is how to promote more sales of protectors that don't even claim
to provide protection.

Again, only you are talking about absorbing energy. I never said
that. Bud didn't either. And to blow out a MOV all you need to do
is hit it with current beyond what it is rated for. You apparently
aren't aware that they have specs for max current and maximum energy
disipation. It's a semiconductor, not an infinite current shunt.




Divert it to where? Where is surge energy dissipated? Earth
ground. With a 6 foot power cord on a plug-in protector, how will it
make a 'less than 10 foot' connection?

Then why do manufacturers put surge protection into electronic eqpt
and appliances that work under the same conditions? No, wait! They
are even farther from earth ground by the length of the appiance power
cord of about 4 ft.




Wire length (not diameter)
mostly determines wire impedance. The effective surge protector must
have a low impedance connection to earth. That means 'less than 10
feet'. A plug-in protector too far from earth ground is for profits;
not protection. Does not even claim to provide protection. View it
yourself. Its numeric specs do not even list or claim to protection
from the typically destructive type of surge. Bud will never post
that number because the number does not exist. A $15 plug-in
protector (or same one sold in Circuit City or Radio Shack for $150)
does not even claim to provide that protection.

But its called a protector. Therefore it must be protection? Junk
science reasoning. Even its own specs do not claim to protect from the
typically destructive surge.

You would spend 15 times more money ($15) and still not protect that
$2000 TV?

Take it up with IEEE and NIST.





A grossly undersized protector's MOV may vaporize so you will
believe myths. See those scary pictures that demonstrate plug-in
protectors. Bud hopes you ignore those scary pictures including a
latest fire in Boston or the NC Fire Marshall's report on why plug-in
protector create fires. Effective MOVs make a short ('less than 10
foot') connection to earth ground AND is best located far from
appliances. That effective solution is the 'whole house' protector -
costing tens of times less money. No earth ground means no effective
protection.

If they were a fraction as dangerous as you claim, they would have
been pulled from the market a long time ago.




Why does your telephone CO not shutdown during every thunderstorm?
It connects to overhead wires everywhere in town. According to Bell
System Tech Journal papers, the CO may suffer about 100 surges during
every thunderstorm. Why does their telephone switching computer
suffer no damage? One 'whole house' protector is located where each
wire enters the building, where the protector connects directly to
earth ground, AND up to 50 meters separation from electronics.
*Separation* between electronics and protector is important for
protection. Oh. They don't waste money on plug-in protectors? They
don't want protectors that can even contribute to electronics damage
or create scary pictures. A protector is only as effective as its
earth ground. Effective protector is at earth ground AND is separated
from the $2000 TV.

Hmm, then why do they put the protection inside appliances that you
have no problem with? But put similar, or better protection next to
it in a plug-in surge protector, and according to you, it's useless.






You actually believe a 'blown out' MOV provides protection? A
'blown out' MOV even violates manufacturer specs. But a 'blown out'
MOV gets the naïve to promote more sales. Telcos don't waste tens of
times more money for ineffective protection. Why would you? Why
would you use a protector that may earth surges destructively through
your $2000 TV?


I believe a blown out MOV could have turned on sooner, taking the
surge hit before the protection inside the appliance. Or, being in
parallel, it could take part of the surge and the protection inside
the appliance could take part, where without the external surge
protection, the appliance would have gotten the whole thing and had
it's protection and/or the appliance destroyed.