On Oct 28, 5:50 pm, " wrote:
On Oct 27, 5:17 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:





We could solve this problem easily. All we have to do is to eliminate the
minimum wage, outlaw unions, and then tell people they can accept
$0.80/hour (a sort of median wage in China) or suck wind. That's
something like the way things operated here before 1910 or so.

--
Ed Huntress

Here's another key point: If they find themselves in direct competition with
a low-wage overseas manufacturer, they can't remain competitive no matter
what they do. You can't compete with $0.80/hour wages. As GM demonstrated a
few years back, you can crate the technology and the management skills and
ship them to Shanghai, and then build engines for Chevy SUVs that you ship
back to the US. It all happens a lot quicker now.

If a company finds itself in the unfortunate position of competing
directly -- an apparel manufacturer, or a basic steel producer -- the best
thing to do is to get themselves *out* of direct competition, by finding a
niche or a collection of services that overseas competitors can't easily
duplicate. We do better now in steel mini-mill recycling and in specialty
steels than in basic steel. Apparel companies in the US, those few that are
left, specialize in things that move fast and that require acute sensitivity
to local tastes and fashions. And so on.

You have two choices: Try to cut your costs to compete with subsidized
manufacturing and $0.80/hour wages, and watch your company go down the
toilet; or make a change in your business to get out of the line of fire.

--
Ed Huntress

I disagree. The US is manufacturing more than ever. Maybe not as
much as it would be if some industries had not moved to places with
lower costs, but still more than ever.

As far as things as basic steel producer, read " American Steel ". It
is about how Nucor installed the first continuous casting steel
plant. You say there are two choices. Actually there are at least
three. The one you did not mention is getting rid of unskilled
labor. A group of metalheads in Seattle recently toured the Nucor
plant is West Seattle. The plant is highly automated. I forget the
exact number, but I think they have about 18 people working per
shift. All well paid. I know you are going to say Nucor is in the
mini-mill business, but they are the second largest steel company in
America. And the day we toured the plant, they were producing rebar.
A pretty basic product.

Nucor has two plants the make fasteners. Nuts and Bolts. They run
three shifts, but the grave yard shift has zero people working in it.
Look up Nucors web site and see all the things they produce and how
much per employee.

You can compete with $ .80 wages , but only if you are about 25 times
more porductive. There are still a lot of machine shops in the US.
But they do not employ many machinists. They are automated.

What is going to the the real force is that the foreign plants are
eliminating the unskilled labor too. They are automating, educating
more engineers, more quality control people, educating more people in
manufacturing plant management.

I am also not sure how much difference the unions made in increasing
the standard of living in the US. Eli Whitney invented mass
production. Ford the assembly line.
It takes time for things to change, but I think that they would have
changed without the unions. Maybe not as fast, but the change would
have occurred never the less.

It was not the Unions that raised the standard of living. It was the
increased amount of goods manufactured per manhour. Unless more goods
were manufactured, the standard of living would have stayed the same.
Ford understood that the masses had to be able to afford a car in
order to sell millions of cars.

Dan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -





I've seen several posts by certain people who say unions have outlived
their usefulness and are no longer needed.



If you feel this way you're in for a rude awakening some time in the
future. Once the unions are gone you'll see. There have been many
workers that are non-union that have ridden on the coattails of
unions.



Many times the benchmark for workers for wages and benefits have been
union workers, especially the UAW. There is also what is called the
prevailing wage. Many wages in a community are based on benchmarks and
prevailing wages.



Just wait. When all of this is gone we'll all be living in cardboard
boxes like they do in Mexico. If you're a professional person it can
happen to you, too.



This whole deal of illegal immigration, outsourcing - offshoring, H-1B
abuses, and other things will serve to lower everyones wages, even
among the professions. It's just a matter of time. In fact, it's
happening as I write this. Some bigshot somewhere is hatching a plan
to offshore your job or reduce your wages. You can take that one to
the bank!



When this happens who will stand up for you? The government? Hah, Hah.
You'll wish you had a union.