Doug Miller wrote:

In article , "Pete C." wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:

*What* signs?

* More damage to the Tyvek wrap than the siding.

Have you actually looked at the photos?

A number of times.


* Extra nail visible in the sheathing in the suspect area.

Yep, nails start invisible fires all the time.

They damage wiring, create shorts and start fires with some regularity.
Indeed that is the reason for code requirements regarding stapling
wiring back from the edges of the studs and the use of metal nail
protection plates at locations where wiring passes through studs close
to the edge.


* Four electrical boxes surrounding the suspect area.

And yet *no* evidence of any electrical fires visible anywhere.

Apparently none that you are able to realize.




Look, I'm not saying that he absolutely shouldn't open up the wall -- just
saying that he should look at the back side of the vinyl siding first,
which
he does not appear to have done. Somebody asked him a couple days ago what
the
back side of it looked like; as far as I can tell, he hasn't answered that
question yet.

And I've noted that looking at the back of the siding is not likely to
show any discoloration since it was not exposed to direct flame, it was
exposed to moderate heat, heat that will deform the vinyl siding well
before it discolors it.

Still waiting for your explanation of how your magic heat source discolors the
vinyl siding on the surface *away* from the heat, but not on the surface
*toward* it...

I never made any such claim. You are the only one who ever suggested
there would be discoloration on the siding.

False. You wrote:

True. I never once claimed there was any discoloration on the siding.


"Heat coming through the sheathing could very
easily build to the level required to soften and deform the vinyl siding
without discoloring the back side."

I clearly state "soften and deform", and nowhere state "discolor".


The siding is visibly discolored; no suggestion is necessary. And I was not
the first to suggest that the OP should check for discoloration on the back
side, either.

Looking at the photo again on a system with a CRT monitor, it does
appear that there is some discoloration. In that case I would expect
comparable discoloration on the back side of the siding as well. My
assessment of the likely cause remains unchanged.



Suggest you go to your local building supply place and get a sample of
vinyl siding and a piece of OSB. Place the siding on top of the OSB in
your oven and start baking it at the lowest temp, say 150-170 degrees.
When the siding starts to sag check the back for any discoloration.

That "test" obviously doesn't even come close to replicating the conditions
you believe to exist. Here's a better one: place the siding on top of the OSB,
outdoors, and then build a wood fire underneath the OSB. When the surface of
the vinyl siding *away* from the heat source begins to discolor, examine the
surface of the siding *toward* the heat source, *and* the OSB, for signs of
damage. Go ahead -- try it. Then tell us what you find.

Try applying Tyvek and vinyl siding onto the OSB and then torch the OSB
from the back until the vinyl deforms.

OK, fine, conduct the test that way. Get back to us and let us know what you
find out.

It's not my house that is at risk of burning down based on your bad
advice. If my assessment turns out to be incorrect, the only damage is a
half hour of work removing and replacing a small piece of OSB.


Again, you are the only one who
has made any claims of discoloration on the vinyl siding.

Look at the OP's original photo. It's visibly discolored.

Not on an LCD monitor it isn't. On a good CRT it looks like it is. One
more example of why LCDs shouldn't be used for critical graphics work.





It's also been suggested to the OP that he perform a test on a scrap of
siding, to see if the stain and the solvent he used will produce similar
damage. He hasn't yet reported results of that test, either.

The solvent use in question was many months ago, and the damage to the
siding was obvious enough that it is very unlikely it went unnoticed all
those months.

Yet you don't find it unlikely at all that a heat source inside the wall would
discolor the surface of the vinyl siding *away* from the heat source, while
leaving the surface *toward* the heat source undisturbed.

Where is this magic discoloration on the surface of the vinyl siding you
claim? The OP's photos do not show any discoloration on the vinyl
siding.

Wow. You are so firmly fixated on your idea that it simply *must* be due to a
heat source inside the wall that you can't even see what's right in front of
you.

I'm fixated on the evidence that indicated an internal heat source is
likely, which includes the more significant damage to the Tyvek, and the
fact that the position of the damage to the siding would not align with
a grill being moved too close and radiating heat.

The wall segment between the railing and the door is about 24" wide
based on the 4" wide outlet. A grill is about the same or greater depth
and if positioned there would have also damaged the siding closer to the
door. The damage also appears to continue behind the railing, something
that would be very unlikely with radiant heat from a grill.


Go look at the original photo posted by the OP -- for the first time, since
it's plain you haven't seen it before -- and you'll see that discoloration.

I've seen it plenty, and on an LCD monitor it doesn't appear discolored.
On a CRT monitor it does.



Doesn't say much for your ability to evaluate what's likely or unlikely.

Doesn't say much for your reading comprehension or visual acuity.

Ummm... *I'm* not the one who's unable to see clearly visible discoloration on
the siding.
[snip]
Where is this discoloration you claim? The OP's photo
(http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Squisher/IMG_6627.JPG) does not show any
such discoloration.

It certainly does. Better have your eyes checked, Petey.

Monitor, not eyes. It doesn't change my assessment though since the
other evidence clearly supports my conclusion and discoloration of the
siding doesn't affect that conclusion one way or another.


If you can't differentiate a shadow from
discoloration, that's your problem.

"Shadow" ??? ROTFLMAO!


The same "objective" analysis of the damage apparent on the successive
layers,
namely, severe damage to the siding (outermost), slight damage to the Tyvek
(next inside), no damage evident on the OSB (innermost of the three visible),
also led you to conclude that the damage was caused by a heat source INterior
to the home. Right, a heat source INside the wall causes the greatest damage
on the OUTside, and the closer you get to the heat source, the less damage is
apparent.

Your analysis of the damage is seriously flawed. The damage to the
Tyvek, namely shrinkage and melting to the point of holes forming, is
significantly greater than the damage to the vinyl siding, namely
softening and sagging.


Phooey. You *began* with the assumption of an internal heat source, and you're
inventing explanations for it, in the absence of any clear evidence.

I've noted plenty of evidence to support an internal heat source,

You haven't noted any evidence at all, Pete, just a bunch of assumptions.

No, I've clearly noted the evidence. Indeed the fact that the damage
continues behind the railing almost completely rules out an external
source. I raise my probability of finding fire damage within the wall to
95%.


you've
not noted any evidence to back your claims and indeed you have
fabricated claims not supported by anything the OP has posted.

"Fabricated claims"?? You mean like noting the same discoloration that other
posters have noted as well, the same PLAINLY OBVIOUS discoloration that you
are for some reason unable to discern?

Discoloration that from what we know so far tells us absolutely and
sways the analysis of the other evidence not at all. If you have
evidence that there is not comparable discoloration on the back side of
the siding, let us know, otherwise we have to base our conclusions on
the other evidence which clearly supports an internal heat source.

Pete C.