DIYbanter - View Single Post - OT And Apologies to Those Who disagree or May Have Seen it

Morris Dovey

(in
) said:

| Morris Dovey wrote:
|
|| Slow down, nailshooter, or you'll get left behind. Dig out a copy
|| of "Turn, Turn, Turn" and take a listen.
|
| Actually, for me it is The Youngbloods, "Let's Get Together".
|
|| We've had enough polarization - and IMO, it's time to acknowledge
|| that allowing the politicians (of any and all persuasions) to
|| abandon the middle ground was a mistake worth laughing at. It may
|| be the most healthy thing we can do.
|
| I agree. But if you laugh at an issue and someone hears you that
| is on the other side, they no longer see the humor. It's time to
| get it on.

I guess I'm just getting old - my hide seems to have thickened over
time (dermal sclerosis?) and lacking the energy to fight /all/
battles, I feel the need to remain as accepting of differences of
opinion as I can; and save my energy for the battles where I'm capable
of affecting the outcome.

| Rarely is this seen more often than in American politics. And what
| bewilders me more than any other aspect of that is how vigorous and
| blindly both sides of the political system (sorry, it boils down to
| Dems and Reps, like it or not, so no screaming from alternative
| parties - your time hasn't come) defend their pointless rhetoric.
| And in this group that defense has gone from simple sticking out of
| each other's tongues, to snotty and sarcasic commentary, to
| threats. People use language and tone to bash each other here that
| they would never use if faced in person with the individual they
| are burning alive over their diffences. I work in an all male
| industry... remarks made here from the safety and anonyminity of a
| monitor and keyboard would result in a loss of teeth... not because
| of disagreement on issues, but on the completely disrespectful tone
| used.

Anonymity allows cowards to speak brave words. I think it's as true
for usenet as it was for CB radio. On the other hand, usenet is also a
medium in which a certain amount of respect is afforded those who show
respect for others and accept that many things can be seen in more
than one way.

| To me it is more than profoundly stupid to defend any of the
| mongrels we have in politics today. Both parties carry the stench
| of greed, lies, and self serving agendas wherever they go and
| whatever they do. They don't care about any of us; and it is
| amazing to me that anyone thinks their respective "representatives"
| might. How childishly naive can they be? There is no difference
| in the parties we have at all. Not one bit; anyone that keeps up
| with the news at all can say that one group is worse or better than
| the other. Politicians (except of couse, the one you like) dont'
| care about any of us unless it is time for fundraising, reelection
| or face time with the press.

I'm inclined to agree; but feel compelled to assert that there are
good people with solid principles and high ideals on both sides of the
aisle.

A few years back I was invited to accompany newly-elected Governor Tom
Vilsak in walking presidential candidate Bill Bradley through the Iowa
State Fair (I'm still not sure how that came about since I was
registered as an independent) - and came away from the experience with
tired feet and a profound respect and liking for both men.

| And worse, to use our system of news reporting a source of factual
| data is a bigger joke still. Where do we get out "facts"? What
| makes your source of facts, the ones used for the frequent acid
| bath administered here by those that disagree with each other, the
| "correct source"? The worlds's news system is a joke, manipulated
| by the owners and editors of that media to sell papers, air time
| and commercial space. (Still though, my favorite from Homer , "
| But Marge... I saw it on the internet, that means it has to be
| true..." or with Homer *sobbing*, "But TV wouldn't lie to me...
| would it?") But any "fact" that is convenient is pulled out and
| used as needed when is taken for undisputed truth if it serves the
| cause of angry dispute.

Truth is sometimes a slippery critter. I suspect that when it became a
commercial commodity, it became a bit "bendy". Still, there has ever
been a need for the receiver to listen critically. I don't recall that
dispassionate objectivity has /ever/ been in oversupply...

Although it's sometimes pretty tiresome, disagreement is one of the
signs that different people are looking at different aspects of a
problem (or looking differently at the same aspects) and arriving at
different conclusions. I see this as a fundamentally healthy sign. The
passion with which people speak is simply an indicator of how much of
themselves they've invested in the issue.

I agree that little purpose is served when civil discussion devolves
into attacks on the participants...

| And even worse still, is the fact that all the ugly political
| threads here are just running, hateful commentaries populated by
| playground style one-upsmanship. Both sides carry the arrogant
| lack of humility that has become requisite to particiapation here.
| Yet, while these indignant warriors carry their banner highly as
| long as it is in front of the computer with a cup of coffee or
| chatting with their like minded friends. I don't know (I could be
| mistaken) of any that go out and do anything about their highly
| principled extreme positions. Not even attending a city council
| meeting.

I'll agree that there are varying degrees of maturity brought to any
(all?) threads on usenet - but I think you might be at least a little
surprised at the number of people who quietly act on their
principles...

| Sure it lots of fun to belittle each other here, though. You don't
| know the guys here, you won't run into them at the grocery store, a
| school function, etc., so you can be the badass you always thought
| you were. Bury each other with pointless facts, clever rhetoric,
| and sarcasitic sniping until it gets ugly because someone cuts too
| deep... then it really starts. Why if you were just there in
| person, you might even kick some ass!

Well, it's that anonymity problem again. Still, after reading here for
a while, I've begun to feel that I'm developing a sense of who/what
many of the regulars are really like as individuals.

| What got me going here was the fact that a post was made that was
| clearly marked OT, and had in the subject an apology, invoked a
| thinly veiled threat. So how thin skinned are we going to get?
| Are we only allowed to post a silly throw away attempt at humor if
| the group guardians approve it? I do not agree with some of the
| things posted here, but how much further does one need to go than
| to mark it upfront to keep from getting personally attacked for an
| attempt at humor? I don't agree with the many of the OTs posted
| here, but thankfully they are marked "OT", and if the content
| offends me I just don't go back. I don't feel any need to control
| this group.

Good - the group doesn't need controlling; and it's not of primary
importance that it be under control. Usenet being what it is, it's
only necessary to grow a thicker skin. :-)

| The deviseness of which you speak is no more apparent anywhere than
| it is here. My personal posts were to help the normal process of
| hysterical screaming and hate mongering along to an immediate
| crescendo and thusly (hopefully) a quicker end. In a not to subtle
| manner, I was really trying to encourage (or in a perfect world,
| discourage) another long, nasty thread. Along the way I was
| hoping that some of the more vitriolic of this group would get the
| hint. So little time is spent on woodworking here compared to any
| subject that deals in any negative aspect.

I recognized your attempt vbg - and I also recognized how important
it is to recognize mistakes and make those things the object of humor,
so that some degree of balance can be restored (so we can move on to
more pleasant thoughts like beer and woodworking). This takes a bit of
time and effort; and resists hastening. In a typically usenet fashion,
the group is working toward some degree of consensus (IOW
rediscovering common ground). Thus my comment that if you didn't slow
down you might be left behind...

| So Morris, I'm OK. I agree with you. I am sick of all the
| fighting. I'm right there with you on "Turn, Turn, Turn". But sir,
| we are few and far between. The art of gentle disagreement is
| lost. The respect for another's opinion has been replaced by "I'm
| right, and since you dont' agree with me, screw you". No political
| party will make a change, it has to come from the people; but that
| should be for another topic.

I don't see it as quite so black and white. Sometimes (frequently?)
gentle disagreement (and sometimes agreement) is expressed in silence.

| I am about as far right conservative on some issues as one can get,
| and pretty damn far left on others. Most of my friends are the
| same way. We respect each other's opinons and we like to hear
| updates on matters that interest us. We have been friends in some
| cases for more than 30 years, and we choose to honor (or just
| tolerate) each others opinions and not speak to harshly on hot
| topics as we know we never really have the truth as it is presented.
|
| I'm OK Morris, really. But the hijinks here, essentially a
| "woodworking" group, get under my skin on occasion.

Sounds fairly normal to me. I've found that there are times when my
tolerance is at low ebb - and at those times I either don't read
usenet or read but don't reply.

I already knew you were OK - or I wouldn't have posted.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto