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Morris Dovey

J. Clarke (in ) said:

| "Morris Dovey" wrote in message
| ...
|| Doug Miller (in )
|| said:
||
||| In article , "Morris
||| Dovey" wrote:
|||| Doug Miller (in ) said:
||||
||||| In article
||||| . com, "tom"
||||| wrote:
|||||| Pardon me, but do the words "All men (and women and kids) are
|||||| created equal" ring a bell? Not "All U.S. citizens", but all
|||||| people. Inalienable rights for_all_ people.
|||||
||||| Just curious where that appears in the U.S. Constitution....
||||
|||| It doesn't, of course. It appears in the Declaration of
|||| Independence - the first act of Congress (which, to my knowledge,
|||| has never been repudiated nor repealed by either that Congress
|||| nor any subsequent Congress - and which is today enshrined
|||| alongside the original hand-written Constitution.)
|||
||| But neither is it a part of that Constitution, and therefore it is
||| not part of the law of the land. And that's probably a good thing,
||| too: "... that whenever any form of government becomes destructive
||| of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to
||| abolish it..." is a call to revolution.
||
|| Exactly so. It's also a reminder to _participate_ in a truly
|| representative government to effect those alterations when, in the
|| judgement of citizens, alteration is needed. The text of the DoI
|| makes clear (to my satisfaction, at least, and IMO properly) that
|| revolution was considered a last resort.
||
|||| The Constitution also does not mention the Magna Carta nor
|||| established (British) Common Law (or even "Jefferson's Notes") -
|||| and yet these have very real bearing on how the United States
|||| are/is governed and what we recognize as the foundation of our
|||| system of justice.
||||
||||| Non-citizens *don't* have the same rights as citizens. One
||||| obvious example is that only citizens have the right to vote.
||||
|||| This is a non sequitur.
|||
||| It is not a non sequitur at all. The claim was made, implicitly,
||| that all have equal rights, regardless of their citizenship or
||| lack thereof. And that simply is not true. Citizens _do_ have
||| rights that non-citizens lack.
||
|| It _doesn't_ follow. At one time (assuming you're a US citizen)
|| _you_ did not have the right to vote. I also, at one time, did not
|| have the right to vote even though I was an American citizen born
|| in the United States. That had nothing to do with my legal rights.
|
| Huh? So if the right to vote is not a "legal right" then what is
| it?
|
| Who gets to vote is defined by the Constitution and by statutes and
| case law. Every other right that a person has in the United States
| is also defined by the Constitution and by statutes and by case
| law. So how is voting different from the "legal rights" about
| which you are concerned?

The right to vote was offered as a generalization; and my point was
that it wasn't a particularly good proof of the point Doug seemed to
want to make, since /most/ laws don't apply only to citizens. I'm
aware of other laws containing exclusions as well; but as a general
rule our laws apply to all within our purview.

|| Further,
|| non-citizens in the United States have the right to bring lawsuits
|| in the same manner as citizens; and are subject to lawsuits in the
|| same manner as US citizens.
|
| And what provision of law established this "right"?

Good question. IANAL so I'll invite you to inform me. I have an
acquaintance who is both an attorney (US) and a barrister (UK) who
should be able to give me a good answer. I'll ask next time I see him.

|| The right to cast a ballot does _not_ determine an individual human
|| being's right to fair and just treatment.
|
| You are missing the point entirely.

In what way? (Are we each having separate discussions?)

|| Citizenship does _not_
|| determine an individual human being's right to fair and just
|| treatment.
|
| No, it determines what laws apply to him.

Not even that. A person becomes subject to American law (perhaps as
well as the laws of that person's country of citizenship) when they
enter territory under the purview of American law. An American citizen
in any other country is subject to the laws of that country as well as
the laws of the United States.

If you don't believe this, I'd suggest you not travel abroad.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto