On 6 Nov 2006 11:42:46 -0800, wrote:

Both of our opinions require an intellectual compromise. I believe
yours requires that we be willing to compromise national security and
the protection of the citizenry at large to make sure that everyone,
even the worst of the worst, is given full protection to the letter of
the law and even going as far as creating new laws or changing existing
ones to extend those protections to people who aren't covered now, even
if it means impairing the ability of the government to protect against
threats.

Yes, that's my compromise. Predicated on the idea that our legal
structures are intended to protect those who are *not* the "worst of
the worst." Given the egregious nature of our enemies' activities, it
should not be that difficult to properly convict them using the
standard that we are trying to preserve against their actions. If the
government needs to hold them for a limited time while gathering
evidence prior to a full trial, that would seem to be a valid
compromise. Conviction without evidence should never be allowed.

My opinion is that the government needs to have the power to protect us
against threats. I don't believe now is a good time in history to apply
more restraints on the government. I believe that this is important
enough that we need to risk trusting our government to do the right
thing. I don't fear that our current government really wants to extend
and abuse its powers so it can become the fascist dictatorship that you
seem to fear. And that's my compromise; that we have to trust the
government to do the right thing.

And that's yours. Aptly stated.

You seem to have a mindset that the government is hell bent to strip
our rights away. (If you reply to this, maybe you can explain what you
believe the government's motive for this would be). I believe there are
a lot of people out there, that subscribe to many of the same thoughts
you do, that are willing to take active steps in undermining the
administration with no thought of any of the many other consequences.
They have become very skilled at battering and torturing the system by
implosion - destruction from within using the country's own democracy
as a weapon against itself. And believe me; the enemies of the state
are very happy to take full advantage of the numerous benefits that
come their way from this.

The motive of the government is the same as it always was. Power, and
it's aquisition. In our system, there are those who are good and
loyal citizens doing a tough job the best they can, and there are
those who are simply trying to gain and hold as much power as they
can. We've seen a lot of evidence these past few years that the
administration currently in power is willing and able to lie and
conceal things from us, and many of them are engaged in activities
that are entirely criminal. And we've seen evidence that the other
side has those same problems in past years, though those breaches are
often of a different character.

When our system of government was drafted, some very intellegent men
argued long and hard over every minute detail of the government they
were building, and one thing that comes through very clearly is their
insistance on three major things- First, that the government need be
accountable to the citizenry, second, that the three branches of our
government each have the ability to counterbalance the other two, and
third, that each citizen have the right to petition their government,
and each accused man have the right to confront his accusors.

They did not simply trust in the good intentions of the others who
were in that room, or those of the persons to follow them. That is
why our Union has stood for 230 years.

While it may work to the benefit of the odd "bad guy" when we protect
and honor our core principles, it is far more important to vouchsafe
the liberty of the innocent. Liberty is not, and has never been a
guarantee of safety. And liberty is the rock our country is built on-
not safety. We have our problems, sure- but not of the nature and
degree that other countries who do not afford people these basic
rights.

The beauty of the Constitution is that in never asks us to trust the
government. History and human nature teach us that when we do, we
open ourselves to enslavement.

I believe if you going to fear a hostile regime coming to power, you
should REALLY fear the one that could come to power if America fails to
protect itself.

But I don't, because it won't happen. Irsael is a fraction of the
size and strength of the US, and is surrounded on all sides by the
conflict. The Arabs surrounding them have not managed to take over
thier country- so what makes you believe that we are so feeble and
weak that we will simply lay down arms and bow to Mecca if a couple of
thousand guys in dresses with AK-47s manage to make it across the
ocean? The problem is a gnat dressed up in giants' clothing to give
us all something to hate and fear. They can hurt us from time to
time, but they cannot break and enslave our country- we have to do
that ourselves. *That* is how the terrorists win.