Prometheus wrote:
On 3 Nov 2006 09:56:20 -0800, wrote:
You sound like a wannabe ACLU scheister.
Ahh, the pervasive slight-of-hand of the GOP spinners. How exactly is
it that standing up for freedom and civil liberties has become an
insult?
Nobody is talking about suspending Habeus
Corpus for American citizens. But why let the facts get in the way of
your fiery bombast?
Nobody is talking about suspending Habeus Corpus for American
citizens- yet. But there is a clear and logical path that will take
us right there, and the administration is on it. They declare an open
ended war on an ill-defined descriptive term, apply that term first to
non-citizens and use it to suspend their human rights. Then sometime
in the future when a nutjob decides to blow up the county courthouse,
it's very easy and tempting for legislators to use the same arguments
that worked so well against the foreigners to suspend the rights of
known associates of the person or persons responsible for domestic
terrorist activities. That's the door, and if the current legislation
continues to be expanded, it will happen. Once that door is opened,
it's a downhill slide. It's far easier to declare a person a
terrorist and lock them away without specific charges or evidence than
it is to actually establish facts.
I want my country to have the tools it needs to protect itself against
enemies of the state and not be hobbled by activists who will do
anything they can to castrate and beat America down using its own
democracy against itself.
If you think most politicians are trying to actually protect you,
you're wrong. They're trying to make you feel like they're doing
something to protect you so you will vote for them again. Rather than
doing the work of determining actual guilt or innocence, they're
tossing people into detainment camps so that they can say they caught
the bad guys. Without any facts or charges, we just have to take
their word for it. Our government needs to be accountable to us.
That's the whole deal- the whole point. Every single thing America is
and represents is built on that concept.
We lose that, we're no longer the America you love.
Because their activities and endeavors often serve enemies of the state
better than it serves American society at large, I have to wonder where
the loyalties of these activists lie; are they good citizens trying to
protect democracy (at any cost to the general public) or do they have
an agenda that may not be so true blue?
Wonder away, but don't go convincing yourself that standing up for the
Constitution and the principles it represents is somehow unpatriotic.
I've seen the argument about our "social contract" only applying to US
citizens, but that is completely contrary to the intentions of the
Founding Fathers, and the spirit of our country. Crossing a border
does not grant anyone the right to don jackboots and trample anyone
that gets in their way. As a point of fact, that was the very
behavior we were opposing when we went to Iraq the first time.
If a British subject were accused of a crime, would you advocate
taking that person and locking them away without trial or evidence
because they are not a US citizen? How about a Dutch person, or an
Austrailian? Are the French fair game? Can we go into Germany and
torture their citizens?
You guys with your Mom and apple pie arguments about the US always
having clean underwear are getting us into very dangerous waters. We
as a society do not have the right to pick and choose which people
have rights and which do not. People have rights, period- that's the
whole point of our social contract. It doesn't apply only between
Maine and Alaska- it applies to the human race. You want your rights,
and so does everyone else.
Believe it or not, there are innocent people all over the place. They
work hard and try to improve their lives, too. Some of them are
criminals- but not most of them. They have families and jobs, and
they do what they have to do to get by- just like you. Being lucky
enough to be born in the *right* geographic area doesn't make you a
good person, and being born in the *wrong* one doesn't make you a bad
person deserving only of imprisonment and torture. Speaking a
different language, dressing differently, or having a different skin
tone does not make a person inferior to you.
This is not that complicated. And you are not in as much danger as
the TV tells you you are. You act as if terrorists are shelling your
kids' school every second Tuesday, and suicide bombers blowing
themselves up in front of the grocery store is an everyday occurance
in Columbus, OH. Some bad people flew planes into three buildings on
purpose- five years ago. It was a horrible thing- but it was less
destructive than a hurricane. Fewer people die in terrorist attacks
than in car crashes. There is still a better chance that I will be
mauled by a bear than killed by a terrorist.
So get your panties out of a bunch, take off the combat boots, and
worry about your freedom- you're still as safe as you ever were. The
real danger is handing our country over to despots because we got
spooked.
Unfortunately, I do not have nearly as much time to spend on this as
you do. You seem to be ardent about getting your opinion across. That's
fine. I actually understand your opinion and, although I don't agree,
see merits in the some of the points you are making.
Both of our opinions require an intellectual compromise. I believe
yours requires that we be willing to compromise national security and
the protection of the citizenry at large to make sure that everyone,
even the worst of the worst, is given full protection to the letter of
the law and even going as far as creating new laws or changing existing
ones to extend those protections to people who aren't covered now, even
if it means impairing the ability of the government to protect against
threats.
My opinion is that the government needs to have the power to protect us
against threats. I don't believe now is a good time in history to apply
more restraints on the government. I believe that this is important
enough that we need to risk trusting our government to do the right
thing. I don't fear that our current government really wants to extend
and abuse its powers so it can become the fascist dictatorship that you
seem to fear. And that's my compromise; that we have to trust the
government to do the right thing.
You seem to have a mindset that the government is hell bent to strip
our rights away. (If you reply to this, maybe you can explain what you
believe the government's motive for this would be). I believe there are
a lot of people out there, that subscribe to many of the same thoughts
you do, that are willing to take active steps in undermining the
administration with no thought of any of the many other consequences.
They have become very skilled at battering and torturing the system by
implosion - destruction from within using the country's own democracy
as a weapon against itself. And believe me; the enemies of the state
are very happy to take full advantage of the numerous benefits that
come their way from this.
I believe if you going to fear a hostile regime coming to power, you
should REALLY fear the one that could come to power if America fails to
protect itself.