jeffreydesign wrote:
Let me address each arguement in order:

"RicodJour" wrote:
Consumer Reports doesn't agree with your opinion of Benny Moore paints.


My reply:
I am a member at consumerreports.org and I checked. You're just WRONG.
Consumer Reports rates Ben Moore as "Very Good" but it is also listed
as "still under test." Furthermore, CR doesn't mention testing Ben
Moore's best housepaint, which is what I was referring to.

Jeff, trying to combine replies in one post is a nice objective, but
omitting the marks makes it difficult for people to read.

As far as the CR ratings. Benny Moore just cracked the top 20 on
exterior paints and CR doen't even rate the Euro paints.
http://consumerreports.org/cro/home-...rior/index.htm
CR is far superior to most paint reviewers as they do long term
testing. One of my pet peeves with the ratings is that some
manufacturers "wised up" and started changing formulations (maybe just
renaming?) so the long term results wouldn't be known.

"RicodJour" wrote:
There is no way to reduce painting labor using the same equipment. The

way most people try to reduce painting labor is by cutting corners
during the prep work.

My reply:
The more you write, the more I see you have no idea what you're talking
about. If you had ever painted much, you would know that there is a
significant difference in labor applied depending on the quality of the
paint. For instance, the better the hide on the paint, the better it
sprays and flows, the longer it holds a wet edge, the better surface
tension - all these and several other factors affect the labor applied.
It should be obvious to anyone that labor is reduced when you don't
have to re-paint as often (the coating lasts longer.)

The only points I had on this part of the thread is that prep work is
paramount and one coat doesn't cut it. An easy flowing paint, or a
higher hide paint won't eliminate a coat or any of the prep work and
might save ten minutes in an average room. You're coming at this from
a different end. A painter that paints eight hours a day is going to
be very concerned with those ten minutes, and very concerned with
saving one or two hundred bucks on a job because they do a lot of jobs
and it really adds up. This newsgroup is for home repair. The OP is a
DIYer. We're not setting someone up in business. The DIYer will waste
far more time than those measly ten minutes due to lack of cutting in
skills, having to mask off _everything_, lack of dedicated equipment,
etc. Just as you wouldn't advise a DIYer painting their apartment to
run out and buy an airless, or even rent one, I'm not worried about
that ten minutes.

It is equally as obvious to an painting professional that "cutting
corners" only ADDS to the labor in the end (early failures, lost
clients, etc) it doesn't reduce labor.

You're arguing with me about something we agree on? This is going to
make it difficult to keep track.

"RicodJour" wrote:
I generally figure paint at roughly 10 to 15% of the job cost using
good quality US paints, so it's not necessary for the Euro paint to
last twice as long to reap benefits.

My reply:
It completely depends on the job. You simply cannot generalize like
that. There are jobs that are single level (no ladderwork) new
pre-primed where labor is significantly less than a 100+ year old, 3
level craftsman house that's peeling. Sometimes paint is 5% of the
total job cost (bear in mind I only use Ben Moore's best paint and it's
not cheap) and sometimes it's 40%.

Please note the qualifying words "generally" and "roughly". I was
giving a general, rough, ballpark, estimated, seat-of-the-pants number.
I am well aware that job conditions vary.

"RicodJour" wrote:
Beyond the economics, there's the aesthetic criteria. You can't argue
that a granite countertop is an unjustified expenditure based solely on

the fact that it costs more. When was the last time someone walked
into a house and said, "Oooh! Plastic laminate!"?

Paint is the final, most visible part of the construction or remodeling

process. Not exactly the place where I'd start settling for "good
enough". The Euro paints have textures and sheens that are different
than what's generally available in the US. Some of the paints looks
like suede, and others I can't describe. US paint manufacturers are
entering that market with some of their designer paints, but the end
result is not even close. It's a start, though.

My reply:

Well, no kidding. How it looks and performs is where it's at. I do not
agree that the european paints "look" any richer or better than Ben
Moore's Super Spec, for instance. I will agree that there is indeed a
difference in the "look" or richness/consistency of color and sheen
between "good" paint and cheap crap. It's something that people walking
or driving by any of my work notice right away. It's a certain "glow"
obtained when the prep work is done right, the right paint is applied
correctly and the job is finished properly.

I have no doubt you do quality work. I was a little surprised when you
tossed out the BM Super Spec. That's a contractor's paint, and
generally not considered a premium paint. I've never used it. Do you
feel that it is superior to BM's higher priced paints, or equal in
quality at a lower cost?

"RicodJour" wrote:
One aspect you may have overlooked, something I can't, is the depth of
color. The Euro paints use more pigment and more of them.
http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/know...0,16417,216054...

This part was especially interesting to me as I learned of a US
manufacturer of high end paints that I was unaware of:
" The Donald Kaufman Color Collection ($40 to $75 per gallon) is a set
of 37 preblended "full-spectrum" paints. Whereas most paints use just
three pigments and obtain a static color, Kaufman's paints use up to 12

pigments to create a paint whose numerous hues react to changing light
with much of the same richness and range of color found in the natural
world."
http://www.donaldkaufmancolor.com/

My reply:

I didn't overlook "color depth" - which really is about opacity. I
could go into a long dissertation on paint color chemistry, but suffice
to say that there is indeed a difference and it's visually obvious to
almost anyone. Some flat paints look chalky and thin, some look rich
and smooth but still are non-reflective as flat paint should be. I find
that Ben Moore's paints achieve this look where others don't... except
the most expensive coatings. The quality, consistency and other factors
like 'grind' determine how pigment works, not just how many different
pigment colors are used. If you think about it, how many pigment colors
are used to obtain a particular color wholly depends on the color you
want to get. I have never seen ANY paint that only uses three pigment
colors.

I've never seen a 3-pigment paint, either. The part I quoted was to
share my discovery of a lower priced premium paint manufacturer.
Obviously any color _could_ be made from three colors, but most paint
manufacturers use more.

Another factor to consider is how paint affects your spray equipment.
Cheap paint typically has what we call a "high grind" - it is very
abrasive - and it will wear out expensive valves in a hurry. That
certainly adds to the cost of labor.

And the finer the grind, the better the paint will cover and flow.
Rheology is a bizarre, but highly cool, science.

"RicodJour" wrote:
I'll have to try some of their stuff. If it's cheaper to buy and gives
similar results as the more expensive Schreuder paints, I'll use it.

I reply:
I suggest a side-by-side comparison (using Ben Moore.) I think you'll
see little if any difference between two high quality paints. On the
other hand, some of the paints Consumer Reports rate a good paints I
wouldn't use for barn paint. Sometimes I have to use what a client
supplies - and recently I had to use Behr paint (CR rates as a top
paint) which was AWFUL CRAP. I had to repaint three times (which Behr
eventually paid for) in order to get a desirable finish - the paint was
somewhat translucent and had an extremely inconsistent sheen. I used
every trick in the book to make it work and a rep from Behr had to come
see for herself and she agreed with my conclusions. This only
reaffirmed my belief that Ben Moore is a better paint.

I've run into a lot of old-timers that swear by Benjamin Moore, or
Dutch Boy, or swear by oil paint - in general, come to think of it,
they swear a lot. Nothing breeds confidence like success, and once
people have reached their comfort level with success they stop looking
for improvements. This is the natural state of things. Maybe I'm
unnatural, but I never stop looking for improvement.

R