"Morris Dovey" wrote in news:45271c50$0$25784$815e3792
@news.qwest.net:

Mark & Juanita (in ) said:

| On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:08:00 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| Larry Blanchard (in ) said:
||
||| Morris Dovey wrote:
|||
|||| It would seem that you've not noticed the rather large number of
|||| men and women who valued our principles more highly than their
|||| personal survival - and the lesser (but still awesomely large)
|||| number who did not, in fact, survive - all so that you and I
|||| might live in what you so casually refer to as "fantasyland".
|||
||| Well said. But to be fair it must be noted that the terrorists
||| are also willing to die for their principles - or at least for
||| their religion. Ones dedication to a principle does not
||| necessarily prove the validity of that principle.
||
|| Of course - and yet the very existance of a principle as such
|| indicates that there is some strong cultural validation. When such
|| a situation arises, it would seem to me that both sides need to
|| learn more about the (other's) culture and the context in which
|| that validation took place.
|
| Well, from their "holy" book, here is the negotiating position
| that the Jihadis offer:
| In order to avoid future attacks, you can make one of the
| following 3 choices:
| 1) Convert to islam. They are will then welcome you as a brother
| among themselves.
| 2) Acknowledge your defeat, pay them the head tax (jizya) and they
| will allow you to live in your "false" faith as a second class
| citizen under their rule. Be well assured, you will be a second
| class citizen, subject to the whim of their faith. The bleating
| from the left about the "fascist" Bush is absolutely silly -- these
| folks are for real. Try finding the First Baptist Church of Mecca,
| or Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Medina. Look at the laws in places
| like Indonesia and others controlled by these people.
| 3) Refuse to bow to their will; they are then free to kill you,
| anywhere, anytime.

And yet, during my entire ten year stay in Suadi Arabia, I was never
asked to convert to Islam. My Christianity was not merely tolerated
but accepted as a natural part of my makeup.

As a pre-teen and young teenager I visited Hofuf and Al Khobar alone
and unmolested. I visited with shopkeepers and was probably a PIA
because of all the questions I asked; but never - repeat never - was I
/treated/ like a PIA. My inquisitiveness did draw a few smiles; but it
also produced invitations to share coffee or tea and conversation.

Oh yes, I went to Sunday school and attended protestant worship
services every Friday. We called the services "Fellowship Services"
and the Saudis were aware when and where the services were held. The
RC "Fellowship Services" were held in the same place a half hour after
the protestant "Fellowship Services" ended.

| OK, now, what is your counter-offer? Oh, and just to make it
| interesting, realize that lying to "khafirs" (infidels) is not only
| accepted and sanctioned, it is advocated in their religious
| teachings. So, any agreements or contracts you sign with these
| people is subject to revocation at their whim. So, your
| counter-offer and your decision regarding the "solemn agreement"
| they will make with you?

And for all of that I can't recall even a single instance of having
been lied to, stolen from, or cheated by a Moslem /ever/ in Arabia.
Gee, you don't suppose I got singled out for some kind of special
treatment?

| Realize that for the people committing these acts and the
| countries that harbor them or are controlled by them, islam is more
| than just a religion; it *is* their whole culture and way of life.
| From enslaving their women in the hajib and burka to the rejection
| of all things islam to the way they treat their criminals. The
| sharia law is their whole goal and the spread of islam to the
| entire world is their raison' de' etre'. Unfortunately, unlike
| orthodox Christianity in its evangelism, islam is founded on
| spreading by the sword and killing those who fail to convert is
| absolutely condoned. [yeah, I know about the inquisition --- that
| does *not* count as orthodox Christianity, there was nothing
| scriptural about that activity]. Take a look at the current islamic
| rise in France and England; once these groups get power in small
| regions to implement sharia, they will spread and attempt to
| implement that in larger regions as well. Note that in those
| countries, the groups aren't calling for equal rights, they are
| calling for extra rights and the ability to live outside of the
| rest of the cultural norm.

s Yeah, we all know this stuff - the problem is that when I was
there I saw no evidence of any of it. The adult male Saudis that I met
loved their families but appropriately didn't share (and I didn't pry)
intimate details. My mother visited (by invitation) with arab women
and wouldn't say much about it to me other than to say that they
seemed like good and happy people. Mom was _the_ anti-gossip and
wasn't bashful about telling me that some things were "none of your
business."

| The silence from the "moderate" muslims condemning these acts is
| deafening. While there are a few moderate voices, they are few and
| far between and very often accompanied by a whole bunch of "but
| monkeys". i.e. "but you have to understand ... " "but you don't
| realize their ... " etc.

I suspect that if I were a Muslim, I'd probably decide that discretion
was the better part of valor, too. They also watched the 89 people of
'different' religious conviction die in Waco. Hell, that even made me
wary.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto




Morris,
I wasn't a little boy when I was in Saudi Arabia. I was working at
ARAMCO (not for) and living in Al Khobar. Many nights I stayed in the
ARAMCO compound in Dharan ('nother story for another time).
I was there before and during and after Ramadan, 1977. I had the
experience of meeting the Matawa (sp) during this time. I had the habit
(no pun) of wearing thobe and gutra (sp. was a long time ago) along with
sneakers (very comfortable outfit). Being a bit swarthy (Mohawk, French,
and some other tribal ancestry), possessing a nose of aristocratic merit,
and a truly magnificant moustache, the Matawa caught me eating a half
chicken on the beach. It didn't take them long to see I wasn't an Arab,
but it was a little touchy for a bit (they had whips or glorified
switches). I didn't take kindly to being thrashed about the shoulders,
but I was in their country and shut up (did say MF a few times though). I
saw many people, mostly women, whipped by the Matawa (sp) for sins
against religious law. I was working and living with some Lebannonese
arabs (shared the same bungalow in the compound). We became fairly good
friends (even shared much sadeki). These friends were Christains, but not
strong believers (like me). The week after Ramadan, they said we should
go to Dammam and watch the punishments. Dammam was very much like the
county seat, but you know that. So I went with them dressed in all my Al
Khobar finery (sort of looked liked the average Saudi Aramco 'worker' (I
never saw a Saudi actually do any work). The punishments were two
beheadings that day (I was told the executions were for highway robbery).
Everybody should witness an execution by beheading. The executioner
doesn't use an axe; a kind of sword is used. The sword reminded me of an
odd shaped meat cleaver. The subject is made to kneel and bare the neck
(there was no block) and the executioner (swordsman) lined his cut and
swung. There was a lot of blood, but it seemed to drip or run away from
the raised platform. The executioner used one swing to behead the first
man, but took two for the second. In each case the head was gathered in a
white cloth and placed with the body that was also wrapped, by this time,
in a white cloth. After the executions there were hands that were chopped
off. we were able to get out of there after eight or nine (didn't see
them all and not in great detail). A woman was supposedly killed later by
stoning, but we didn't see it. We went to Bahrain later and got kind of
drunk, but not drunk.
The Arabs follow their holy book to the letter. Like you say, you were
very safe there and they didn't try to convert you. I didn't feel that
safe there, but I was putting myself in that position by going places
that were unofficially off limits to non-believers. I would never have
been so stupid as to try and visit Mecca. I've got balls still and am
very happy about that. These people follow their holy book by the letter.
I read and I'm sure you've read the koran (Quoran or whatever). What
might have worked for them in the eighth century may not in the twenty-
first century.
Sorry for rambling,
Hank