On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 22:17:08 -0500, "Morris Dovey" wrote:

Mark & Juanita (in ) said:

| On Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:08:00 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
| wrote:
|
|| Larry Blanchard (in ) said:
||
||| Morris Dovey wrote:
|||
|||| It would seem that you've not noticed the rather large number of
|||| men and women who valued our principles more highly than their
|||| personal survival - and the lesser (but still awesomely large)
|||| number who did not, in fact, survive - all so that you and I
|||| might live in what you so casually refer to as "fantasyland".
|||
||| Well said. But to be fair it must be noted that the terrorists
||| are also willing to die for their principles - or at least for
||| their religion. Ones dedication to a principle does not
||| necessarily prove the validity of that principle.
||
|| Of course - and yet the very existance of a principle as such
|| indicates that there is some strong cultural validation. When such
|| a situation arises, it would seem to me that both sides need to
|| learn more about the (other's) culture and the context in which
|| that validation took place.
|
| Well, from their "holy" book, here is the negotiating position
| that the Jihadis offer:
| In order to avoid future attacks, you can make one of the
| following 3 choices:
| 1) Convert to islam. They are will then welcome you as a brother
| among themselves.
| 2) Acknowledge your defeat, pay them the head tax (jizya) and they
| will allow you to live in your "false" faith as a second class
| citizen under their rule. Be well assured, you will be a second
| class citizen, subject to the whim of their faith. The bleating
| from the left about the "fascist" Bush is absolutely silly -- these
| folks are for real. Try finding the First Baptist Church of Mecca,
| or Holy Cross Lutheran Church in Medina. Look at the laws in places
| like Indonesia and others controlled by these people.
| 3) Refuse to bow to their will; they are then free to kill you,
| anywhere, anytime.

And yet, during my entire ten year stay in Suadi Arabia, I was never
asked to convert to Islam. My Christianity was not merely tolerated
but accepted as a natural part of my makeup.

As a pre-teen and young teenager I visited Hofuf and Al Khobar alone
and unmolested. I visited with shopkeepers and was probably a PIA
because of all the questions I asked; but never - repeat never - was I
/treated/ like a PIA. My inquisitiveness did draw a few smiles; but it
also produced invitations to share coffee or tea and conversation.

Oh yes, I went to Sunday school and attended protestant worship
services every Friday. We called the services "Fellowship Services"
and the Saudis were aware when and where the services were held. The
RC "Fellowship Services" were held in the same place a half hour after
the protestant "Fellowship Services" ended.


You realize that it not the Saudis that we are fighting, right? Those
Saudis who flew the planes into the towers were not acting at the behest of
the Saudi government. The Saudis do contribute to the problem through
their support of Wahabbism, but they are careful not to do so within their
own boundaries.

Now, if you were a Saudi citizen, how would you have been treated had you
openly attended Sunday School or other "Fellowship Services"? Also, how
would the Saudis have treated you had you offered to share details of your
faith? Not in a pushy way, but just sharing?

Indonesia has laws that prohibit Christians from openly evangelizing or
sharing their faith. The converse is not true.

Back to the point, it's not the Saudis, or the Kuwaities, or the UAE
citizens that are the issue and they aren't the ones openly and actively
pushing the concept of jihad on the west (they may be quietly supporting
and abetting, but that's a different issue). They aren't the ones who are
going to be issuing the ultimatums --- it's those who are pursuing the
radical agenda that are going to be making those offers.


| OK, now, what is your counter-offer? Oh, and just to make it
| interesting, realize that lying to "khafirs" (infidels) is not only
| accepted and sanctioned, it is advocated in their religious
| teachings. So, any agreements or contracts you sign with these
| people is subject to revocation at their whim. So, your
| counter-offer and your decision regarding the "solemn agreement"
| they will make with you?

And for all of that I can't recall even a single instance of having
been lied to, stolen from, or cheated by a Moslem /ever/ in Arabia.
Gee, you don't suppose I got singled out for some kind of special
treatment?



| Realize that for the people committing these acts and the
| countries that harbor them or are controlled by them, islam is more
| than just a religion; it *is* their whole culture and way of life.
| From enslaving their women in the hajib and burka to the rejection
| of all things islam to the way they treat their criminals. The
| sharia law is their whole goal and the spread of islam to the
| entire world is their raison' de' etre'. Unfortunately, unlike
| orthodox Christianity in its evangelism, islam is founded on
| spreading by the sword and killing those who fail to convert is
| absolutely condoned. [yeah, I know about the inquisition --- that
| does *not* count as orthodox Christianity, there was nothing
| scriptural about that activity]. Take a look at the current islamic
| rise in France and England; once these groups get power in small
| regions to implement sharia, they will spread and attempt to
| implement that in larger regions as well. Note that in those
| countries, the groups aren't calling for equal rights, they are
| calling for extra rights and the ability to live outside of the
| rest of the cultural norm.

s Yeah, we all know this stuff - the problem is that when I was
there I saw no evidence of any of it. The adult male Saudis that I met
loved their families but appropriately didn't share (and I didn't pry)
intimate details. My mother visited (by invitation) with arab women
and wouldn't say much about it to me other than to say that they
seemed like good and happy people. Mom was _the_ anti-gossip and
wasn't bashful about telling me that some things were "none of your
business."


You are aware of the riots in France, the push for allowing various
communities in London and areas in Canada to be ruled by sharia? Those
folks aren't playing "good and happy people" nor are they assimilating into
the countries into which they have emigrated -- they are attempting to get
those countries to conform to *their* culture.

I have also read other first-person accounts of dealings with the Arab
world. One of the most telling statements was, "I found that I liked them,
but couldn't respect them". I also know, through my wife's acquaintances,
a woman whose husband was in Saudi -- she had very interesting observations
regarding their views of western women.

| The silence from the "moderate" muslims condemning these acts is
| deafening. While there are a few moderate voices, they are few and
| far between and very often accompanied by a whole bunch of "but
| monkeys". i.e. "but you have to understand ... " "but you don't
| realize their ... " etc.

I suspect that if I were a Muslim, I'd probably decide that discretion
was the better part of valor, too. They also watched the 89 people of
'different' religious conviction die in Waco. Hell, that even made me
wary.

You have got to be kidding.

We have Time magazine fabricate a story about desecrating the Koran and
the muslims seethe, rage, riot and burn churches and kill people.

We have somebody draw cartoons and the muslim world seethes, burns
churches and kills people.

A pope makes a statement referencing an 13'th century pope's comments
regarding how islam tends to be violent and we get muslims seething,
rioting, burning churches, and killing people. Then they make the
statement that anyone calling their religion violent should have their head
cut off.

Now, you might say that the moderates are afraid of these people, but at
the same time, that doesn't speak well for the direction that religion is
taking, does it? Somehow you tie their failure to speak out to Janet
Reno's attack on Waco?

You still haven't provided your answer; given the jihadi's going-in
negotiating position, what is your counter-offer? Simply saying, weill I
was in Saudi Arabia and they are really nice people who didn't bother me is
not going to work.



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If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

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