On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:06:23 -0500, Kirk Gordon
wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Oh, c'mon, Gunner. I KNOW you're smarter than that. You've slipped
up and made it obvious, in spite of yourself, on more than one occasion.

They tried to defend themselves. In these two cases, unsucessfully.
Because Kirk..it was their decision to own that gun. To use it or not
to use it. It was not removed from them like life choices removed from
a slave, and frankly Kirk..they died on their feet, not on their
knees. And Kirk..that speaks volumes for me. Perhaps not to
you..hell..I suspect you would prefer to be a slave, rather than try
to do whats right and proper, no matter if it may kill you or not.
Were they foolish? Who knows. The thing is..they tried.

Kirk..it takes a very short time to learn to handle a firearm, both
safely and effectivly. My skills and techniques may someday not
prevail either. Some doped up 13 yr old with a Lorcin 25 may kill me.
Shrug..and with luck, Ill take him with me. I strongly believe in
Viking Funerals.

My logic, or yours? My logic says a good basic safety and handling
course taught every year in school. Hands on, live ammo on the range,
the whole works. Pass/fail. And a certification that allows you to
carry what you want, when you want, no registration, no restrictions
in public. No certs needed for what/when/why on your own property.
Full auto or sawed off shotgun. The whole encilada.

Actually no...for every story of a murder, is about 150,000 stories of
those who suceeded in defending themselves.

Danger is the only thing a firearm can do? Odd..Id have said the same
about cars. Yes, cars and firearms can be dangerous to some. Far more
people die in cars every year than are killed with guns by several
orders. And yes, firearms may be used to put another in danger..by
those whom wish to protect themselves from harm. You said simply that
firearms have NO utility value except as dangerous tools. Shooting
sports..then blew it away. Well Ill tell you something bub...a firearm
is a very fine tool for helping keep me safe. I take it you forgot the
Massad quote already? If it takes putting the bad guy in danger, to
help keep me and mine safe..so be it.

So, how do we do it, Gunner? How do we justify, or not, the idea of
people carrying guns as commonly as they carry cell-phones or cigarette
lighters? How do we identify those who SHOULDN'T carry guns, and
prevent those people (the people, not the guns) from becoming dangerous
beyond our reasonable and practical expectations?

We cant. We can only train each and every person whom is not a felon,
or a nut case, and let them carry what they wish, when they wish it.
We cannot keep the nutz or the felons from carrying, never could never
will, but at least we can level the playing field.

I have some ideas of my own; but YOU'RE the one who insists on
making firearms a part of every thread you visit - if only with your
signature lines. So the ball is in your court. The burden for telling
us how and why we should do something that appears to be a very
dangerous idea, belongs in your holster. And it's time to test your aim.

I notice you somehow missed that long list of cites I gave you about
storekeepers. Is there some reason you decided not to give mention to
those people? Or did you save it for another post? I hope you simply
didnt blow them off as they dont fit your world view. Ill read the
rest of your posts with interest.


Ok. Lemme see if I've got all this straight. You believe that...

1. Those shop owners I mentioned, who died while trying to defend
themselves with their guns, were smarter, better, more heroic, or
something, than people who give up their money and stay alive.

Smarter? No. They are dead. Better? No, they are dead. But they could
have been dead either way. Least they made their choice and took their
chances. The long list of other storekeepers I provided went the other
way. Life has no guarentees. You make your choices.
Unfortunately..you and your ilk want to remove that choice.

2. What's important is that they tried. Not that they're dead.

Both are important. They could have been dead either way. The long
list of other store keepers made the same choices. The bad guys lost.

3. Someone who gives up his money, calls the cops, gives a description
of the bad guys, testifies at a trial, etc., is a slave; but someone
lying in a coffin has all the rights and freedoms in the world.

Assuming the bad guys left them alive to call the cops etc etc. If
they had no choice..they would be slaves.

4. You like Viking funerals. (I presume you're aware that the vikings
are all dead, and that other cultures, with different ideas about death
and funerals, have outlived them by a thousand years - and counting.)

Yup. When I go, if by violence, I will go with my enemies at my feet
as an escort to hell.

5. You consider yourself NOT to be a slave because you live in fear of
doped up thirteen year olds; but you think I AM a slave because I walk
around unarmed, and unafraid to face the world without a gun.

Kirk..what makes you think Im afraid of 13yr olds? Im afraid of no
man, but there are a whole bunch of folks out there Ill damned sure
watch. Tell you what..lets you and me take a walk through Compton or
Watts or East LA at 2am on a Friday night, and lets see what your
pucker factor is. Ok? Lets see just how unafraid you are. Deal?

6. You think logic is something that depends on who's attempting to use
it. "Your" logic and "my" logic can be different.

Yup.

7. You think school kids should be taught about guns, "from
kindergarden onward". "Hands on, live ammo on the range, the whole
works. Pass/fail."

Yup
..
8. You believe that successful uses of firearms for self-defense
outnumber murders by a factor of 150,000 to 1. Here in Philadelphia,
there have been roughly 250 murders this year. That would translate, if
you're correct, into 37.5 MILLION instances where guns have been used to
save or protect lives, just in this one city, in a single year, and with
a total population of around 1.5 million people. That would also mean,
of course, that there were 37.5 million cases where people had reason to
protect themselves, and where the danger was of a sort that made a gun
the appropriate tool for self-defense. If we add in all the other kinds
of danger and violence, and allow for all those times when a gun wasn't
used, or wasn't used successfully, then... Well, I guess I can
understand why you're so afraid.

Ok..type on my part..that should be 1,500 per, based on the 2.5
million DGUs that occur in the US every year, compared to the murder
(not homicide) numbers.

9. You believe that danger is not the only thing that a firearm can do.
But you could say, apparently, that danger IS the only thing a car can
do. And to illustrate this, you say that a firearm "is a very fine tool
for helping keep me safe"... by "putting the bad guy in danger."

Both can be used as tools, both can be used as weapons indeed. And
yes besides its other uses where no danger is involved, a weapon can
and does keep me safe by putting the bad guy in danger. And Im always
alert and aware whenever driving..as someone sooner or later will try
to kill me, intentionally or not. Dont ride a motorcycle much do you?
Gives Paranoia a whole new meaning.

10. You believe that "We can't"... "identify those who shouldn't carry
guns, and prevent those people from becoming dangerous beyond our
reasonable and practical expectations" You propose that "we can only
train each and every person whom is not a felon (yet), or a nut case
(that we know of), and let them carry what they wish, when they wish
it"... without apparent regard for the hazzards involved.

Yup. Interesting spin, but you always were a good wordsmith.

Clearly, Gunner, I was wrong. You're not all that smart. I'm not
going to comment further, though. I'm afraid that if I make you angry,
you might do something drastic and dangerous, like putting a swimming
pool in my back yard.

I dont have a swimming pool in my back yard either. Too damned
dangerous.
KG

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should
fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"