John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

John wrote:

"Pete C." wrote:

" wrote:

Gas being lighter than air normally dissapates if it leaks.

That only works to a limited extent and less and less as homes get
"tighter". If windows and doors are closed well nat. gas will just
accumulate from the ceiling down. LP gas is heavier and will accumulate
from the floor up. In either case unless the home is quite drafty /
leaky it will continue to accumulate until it finds an ignition source.

There shouldn't be any gas at all outside the furnace or plumbing.

There shouldn't, if pipes, regulators, valves and controls were all 100%
reliable. As can plainly be seen from all the gas explosions that occur,
that is not the case.

How many explosions is "all the gas explosions?" Or people that awake to find
their home and its contents are destroyed by oil or that their basement is now an
oil spill site?

Relative to the total number of units? Very few. Relative to each other
there is a significant difference.








Oil pools and settles , causing a possible safety clean up issue with
guys in moon suits hauling away contaminated soil

This is *not* a safety issue, it is an over hyped environmental issue.

When your house is not inhabitable due to heavy oil contamination and fumes,
it *is* a safety issue. "Over hyped" environmental issue? Yeah right, unless
you consider oil contaminated earth and pollution as part of your
environment.

First off, uninhabitable meaning you have to leave during cleanup, and
uninhabitable because it collapsed after the gas explosion are vastly
different things. If you are home when the oil leaks you simply leave,
safe and sound. If you are home when the gas leaks you can easily end up
dead.

As for the environmental part, yes, it is over hyped. Cleanup of even
300 gal of fuel oil that leaks in a concrete basement is pretty minor if
it's done reasonably soon.

Cite? I know it is a lot more than that because a house near me had exactly that
happen to it, and the house was condemned during the cleanup last year.

Yes, well it can be overblown if you let yourself be taken in by the
hype. Even then it still pales in comparison to rebuilding from the
crater the gas explosion left, or paying for the funeral.


Cleanup of oil leaked from an underground
tank is a different matter since until the advent of the double wall
tanks with monitoring you aren't likely to detect the leak for months or
years. That is why we replace 50 yr old underground tanks with indoor
tanks or new double wall underground tanks.

I'm suspicious of underground tanks for residential use. And who is doing all of
the required monitoring? If the inner tank breaks, why can't the outer tank break
too? If the outer tank is already corroded when the inner tank breaks, what good
is it (or the monitoring system?)

The outer tanks are poly or fiberglass and they have leak detectors
between the inner and outer walls that will trigger an alarm mounted in
the house. Basically just a smaller version of the tanks they now use at
gas stations.

Not particularly cheap, but if you need the capacity and don't have the
room for several conventional 300 gal indoor tanks they are a good
option.


Gas station tanks have caused enough horrors (at least 7 spill sites from leaking
tanks in my town alone), and they supposedly are tightly regulated and inspected
regularly. Recall that the MTBE fiasco is caused primarily from gasoline leaking
from underground tanks!

Old tanks certainly caused problems, new tanks generally do not.

The MTBE fiasco was caused primarily by eco-nuts pressing for something
to be done without adequate research. The problem was not just from
leaking tanks and those tanks were likely old tanks, not new. The
problem that the MTBE lowered mileage enough to cause more gas to be
consumed to offset any pollution reduction was an even bigger problem
resulting from the knee jerk nonsense. So not only was no pollution
reduced from the tailpipe, additional pollution from the additive was
generated, all of which could have been avoided with a year of research
and testing.






Fuel oil has a strong smell and is very likely to be noticed before much
leaks. Even when a lot leaks, most undamaged concrete floors contain it
pretty well if it's discovered and cleaned in a day or two.

I guess if your concrete floors are watertight and sealed (so the oil doesn't
soak into them) and you don't have any drains or perimeter drains. Oh and if
you don't mind everything saturated in #2 oil.

Concrete floors are fairly water tight if they are in good condition.
Oil will eventually soak through, but at a pretty slow rate. Not that
many basements actually have drains either.

Well just about every house around me has a perimeter drain. Prevents any concerns
of water in the basement. I didn't realize that basement floors and walls were
supposed to be petroleum spill containment systems.

Actually, per building codes, they are. There is supposed to be a
concrete or block containment wall around tanks of sufficient height to
contain the contents of the largest single tank in the space. I don't
have the codes handy, but I think it should have a sealer applied to the
wall and floor as well. Fairly recent code.




As for saturated in #2, I'd vastly prefer that over a smoldering crater
where my house used to be. The oil can be readily pumped and vacuumed up
from the surface and the concrete if it's saturated can be removed and
replaced with far less expense than rebuilding the whole house after the
gas explosion (if I survived the explosion).

Gas just doesn't blow up a house unless something goes really wrong, like a backhoe
out front hitting a pipe. Even then the smell of the gas is pretty obvious before
it reaches an explosive ratio with oxygen. In that case it doesn't matter if your
particular house has gas service if the gas follows a water or sewer or electrical
conduit into your basment instead of following the outside of a gas line.

Well, I keep hearing of people killed in gas explosions in their houses.
Many are elderly which may be a result of reduced ability to smell the
leaking gas, not remembering warnings to not turn on lights and get out
if they smell gas, forgetfulness in having the equipment serviced
regularly, very old equipment, or a combination of all of those.








Thats why homeownerts insurance is requiring oil tank replacement based
on age of tank.

And that is why new underground oil tanks are double wall construction,
just like new tanks at gas stations. Some new indoor tanks are double
wall as well though most are still single wall since there is minimal
risk. Just because a 50 year old single wall underground tank is no
longer viable in no way means that oil heat is no longer viable.
Technology changes and advances and the current high velocity flame
retention burners and controls with pre and post purge cycles are a far
cry from the old burners as well.

Yeah, technology changes, like inducer motors that shut everything down if
there is an exhaust blockage in gas furnaces (very very rare).

Current oil furnaces have the same feature available.

But as you pointed out, CO for oil furnaces isn't a concern for you since you can
just smell the dirtier oil furnace fumes.

When they are out of adjustment and producing a lot of CO, yes. When
they are operating properly they produce little CO and little fumes.





So, what oil company do you work for? Typical new high efficency gas
furnaces get about 94-96% efficiency (AFUE) My neighbor has the exact same
house as I do and he has oil heat. I keep my house a little warmer and last
winter's bill was less than 2/3 of his. After comparing numbers, he's very
interested in switching too. What is the AFUE of your oil furnace?

I work for a bank.

How old are each of your furnaces? Where in the model range is each one?
Both make a big difference. New vs. 30yr old isn't a fair comparison and
neither is new high end vs. new low end.

About five years old. Fine, let's compare it with a four or even a brand new oil
furnace. What AFUE rating



Also since both nat. gas costs and oil costs fluctuate it's difficult to
make a really valid comparison based on cost, particularly when someone
buying their oil off season can get lower prices than someone buying
just month to month. Rate lock-ins are also more frequently available
for oil service.

The last furnace I just had installed at my mothers house this spring
(Weil-McLain WTGO4 with a Becket burner) is 85% AFUE, but it is not a
high end unit. If I was going for high end it would be a Buderus boiler
with a Riello burner. The house needs a lot more insulation so the
burner efficiency is a small factor at present.

What oil furnaces can do 92%-96% AFUE?

Ones that presently cost too much for residential use.

Pete C.