DIYbanter - View Single Post - Windmill nonsense.. Tilting at Wind mills

The Natural Philosopher

wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

So much of what we do we do because its cheap and simple, and very
inefficient. If energy prices rise, it all becomes economic.

The trouble with that view is that the goods we purchase come primarily
down to energy cost and human time cost. IOW as energy prices rise, so
do the costs of the energy saving equipment. Regrettably this wont make
every measure affordable. What it will do is make currently affordable
technologies pay back much more, thus start to be used when now we dont
bother.

That is only so if the energy saving equipment uses more energy (or far
more labour) to make.

If the former is true, its not energy saving is it?

If the latter is true, then it needs better design.

We stopped using canals, because although very energy efficient, they
were very SLOW. We stopped using steam trains because although they wer
very energy inefficient, they were more relevantly HUGELY labour
intensive to maintain vis a vis diesels. We fly jet aircraft rather than
pistons engines for the same reasons.

In each case pure economics - labour versus energy costs - rules. Up the
energy costs and that shifts the balances.

Those who peruse the FT will have noticed the extreme rise in activity
in agricultural futures on energy raw materials - cereals for ethanol -
rape for biodiesel. These are now break even or profitable ways to
generate fuel. With oil at $75 a barrel.

What will imho, as it already has done over time, make more and more be
done is the ever falling real cost of goods, due to more manufacturing
efficiency, sleeker business models, and increasing wealth.

That is why letting or forcing high fossil fuel price rises will in the
end make us energy efficient: The market itself and the individual
consumers own judgment will drive the usage down.

If annual heating bills were - say - £5000 instead of £500, and the cost
of fuel in terms of the prices of manufactured items that are energy
intensive were to ripple through, the pattern of energy usage and
generation would in time reflect that: No need to be 'ecologically
minded' - straight cost benefit analysis would dictate that it would be
worth installing a £20,000 integrated energy management system, in a
house, if it saved £3000 a year....in fuel bills.

Perhaps its nothing but an economic decision anyway. With wind and
nuclear sources, the carbon emissoins question isnt that relevant, our
energy use level simply comes down to economics. (politics too of
course)

Its economics biassed by politics as well.

Despite the fact that both rely on fossil fuel, a fully battery electric
car is infinitely cheaper to RUN (as opposed to make) because
electricity is not subject to swingeing road fuel taxes.

Running your vehicle off domestic heating oil at 35p a litre illegally
is an option not a few people have adopted..

NT