On 9 Dec 2003 07:26:07 -0800, (John Kasunich)
wrote:

Gunner wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:40:10 GMT, Mark
wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Then when we tighten up security and make sure it doesnt happen
again..the actions are demonized as violations of the Constitution
and Civil Rights..witness Patriot Act, Gitmo etc etc.

"and make sure it doesn't happen again"? You mean _try_ to make sure it
doesn't happen again. Even in a police state it is impossible to be
perfectly safe. In a free country it is even harder. But that is one
of the risks of life - not an excuse to turn this nation into a police
state.


Excellent statement! Bravo!

I wish you folks would come up with a counter proposal to ensure the
security of the US, all the while taking money from the HUMINT side of
the equation, and solutions that do not violate (allegedly) someones
rights.

If you dont have any solutions..then you are part of the problem.

I'm all in favor of spending on HUMINT. But I'd rather endure another
9/11 than give government the unbridled power you want it to have. I
just don't get it - you are a libertarian, but you have no problem with
goverment power in the hands of the Right.

I have a problem with excessive government power in anyones hands. You
seem to be missing something somewhere...

Here's something it seems most people (at least the Dubya Dogmatics)
have missed: Pre 911 there were rules and procedures already in place
but the rules were not being followed and procedures were not being done.

No ****..and who was in charge of this during the 8 yrs prior to 9/11?
Whom refused to fund HUMINT sources both foreign and domestic?

It sure wasn't Dubya.

Wife works for the local University. They were suppose to track foreign
students. Did they? Sort of but not really. Since 911 their suppose to
track these foreign students. Are they? Sort of but not really. Pre 911
I suspect they didn't force compliance because it may have caused these
students to take their money to a more friendly institution. Post 911,
at last report, the software wasn't working properly. There may be other
reasons.

I strongly suggest you take a look at the Administrations of those
Universities..and ask them what their take on the matter was. Those
bastions of Liberal thinking were refusing to follow those steps as
being harmful to the rights of those students. Want the cites


If the existing laws are not being enforced, the answer is to enforce them,
not to add new laws. That's practically a quote direct from the NRA/RKBA
people. Why doesn't it apply to security? Why do we need the Patriot act
when existing laws aren't being used, or are being used selectively at the
whim of those in power? That's the exact reason why the RKBA people oppose
new gun control laws - and they are right. More laws and more government
power is not the answer.

Excellent point!

There is a simple test for any law: would I want this law applied to
me? Do you want the government to search your home/shop without a
warrant while you are at work? Don't say "I have nothing to hide".
What if that government decides you shouldn't own guns - then you
certainly would have something to hide.

Good man!

Suppose Lennie called up the Bureau of HS and said "Psst, there's a
guy named Gunner up in Bakersfield with a house full of guns and
a shop where he's making bombs for terrorists." Only the last three
words are a lie. Do you want the BoHS or ATF searching your house
because of a tip from the likes of Lennie? Do you want to be in the
position of having do _prove_ you aren't making bombs for terrorists?

Excellent!

Another problem lies in Government Agencies. Agencies have their piece
of the pie and their intent on keeping as much of their territory as
they can. Worse, each department within each agency has it's own piece
of the pie and their intent on holding onto as much as they can.

Absolutely correct. I notice that most of them are still run by
Clinton appointees. However..since Homeland Security was formed to
address this issue..the Left is Still screaming.

As long as all these people work at getting and keeping as much power as
each of them possibly can we don't stand a chance.

Of course..politicians are politicians.

Exactly - politicians are politicians. Last time I looked, Dubya was
a politician too.

And he got into the game 8 yrs after the fact. He is responsible
for? How long were the Tangos in and out of this country before Bush
got elected? Bush was in office what..9 months when the WTC went
down? Is he the problem..or did he inherit the problem?
Think man think.

Gunner, you would be screaming bloody murder if a Dem/Liberal administration
was passing laws like the Patriot act. But it's OK if the Right does it?
Do you want that Act to still be in effect when the pendulum swings back to
the left? (Don't tell me it won't swing. It always swings both ways, only
the time varies - it might be the next election, it might be in 2050, but it
_will_ happen.)

Buddy..I dont like the Patriot Act in any shape or form. Never did,
never will. I dont like flu shotes, back surgery or driving in LA
traffic.

The continuing question is..given that yall are screaming about the
stepping on the very edges of the Constitution by the Patriot Act..how
would you all handle it?

Lets face it..the Libs and their minions, for YEARS, simply ignored
or bypassed any of the usual checks and balances to prevent Tangos
from getting into the US, to keep an eye on them, to keep tabs on
them..all in the name of protecting individuals rights, being lazy and
in denial and Diversity..defunding a onetime very good HUMINT program
and trying to replace it with a more humane and touchy feely
electronic based Intel gathering system, and 9 months after a new
president takes office..when the **** hits the fan..its HIS fault?

Please don't insult us by saying these people are here for our good,
these people in positions of power are there for their own good, and any
good that comes out of it for us is incidental.


Some are, some arnt. 9/11 changed our outlook and the playing field.

You claim to be a libertarian, but your mistrust of government power
seems to end abruptly as soon as you cross the aisle from Left to Right.
Believe it or not, the Left does _not_ have a monopoly on abusing power.
It's human nature - power corrupts. The Patriot act gives unsupervised
power to government, and sooner or later, it _will_ be abused.

John Kasunich

no ****? Ya think? I shudder to think of what Hillary might do with
her hands on the Patriot Act.

The barn is on fire, and folks here are bitching about having to bust
down the door to get the horses out.

Ive asked for suggestions on how the damage control should be done.
Damage control trying to repair years and years of simply ignoring the
problem, or denying there was one. We have two borders that resemble
a screen door, any effort to track illegals or foriegn nationals from
unfriendly nations is quashed because their rights MIGHT be infringed,
an educational system that is firmly against any form of reporting or
tracking, and a gutted intel community thats supposed to be
responsible for putting it all together, run by Liberal political
appointees that follow the lead of whatever the liberal administration
wants them to do, not what they SHOULD have been doing all along.

9/11 happened, we lost more people than at Pearl Harbor as a result of
many years long mismanagement and you folks bitch about the draconian
response mandated by years of YOUR apathy?

Heyzus Christos boys...at the least..be consistant! As I pointed out
several times..no matter what you do..somebodys rights are gonna get
stepped on. If you require aliens to check in monthly, or report their
location, or a school to report who their alien students are..the Left
wails and moans and ****es all over themselves. As a result..we have 3
million aliens we dont have a clue as to where the hell they are. We
have a steady stream of illegal aliens from many nations coming into
this country from the north and the south through the screendoor
borders, but if any serious attempt to stop the flow..the Libs wail
and whine and **** and moan.
If we catch illegals and deport them, the Left wails and ****es and
moans. If we break up a cell of people sending money and aid to
Terrorists and put them in jail, the Left wails and ****es and moans.
If we hold captured enemies to try to gather information about their
buddies, the Left wails and ****es and moans.

Im greatly reminded of the Great Chicago Fire. When the fire got going
really good..they had to dynamite a bunch of houses and buildings to
create a fire break to prevent it from getting any worse. That fire
should never have started, or should have been nipped in the bud!

But no! Any attempt to do that would have stepped on somebodys rights!
And the Left kept wailing and ****ing and moaning to the point the
Exisiting laws were simply ignored or bypassed for years and years.

And 9 months after that poor ******* Bush takes the Oath of
Office..its all his fault?

Get real. Its YOUR fault for sitting on your ass and letting YOUR
elected politicians let this **** go on for so long.

A hell of a lot of us warned that this might happen..and we were
called haters and bigots and scare mongers and chicken littles. And
guess what? It happened just as we predicted. I remember people on
this newsgroup poopooing the idea it could ever happen. Well **** me
running.

Ive been a survivalist since the 70s, and world politics is something
any survivalist watches, the trends, the acts that occur elsewhere
that might have far reaching consequences that will effect us. 9/11
was NOT a surprise to most of us in the community. Nor is the
aftermath. And we are mad as hell that YOU let it happen.

The question has been asked many many times..how in a free society,
can one completly track and prevent organized and unorganized
terrorism, and remain completly free. THERE IS NO WAY!
Somebody is gonna get their feelings hurt. Period. End program, full
stop. Would you rather it be yours, the citizens..or the feelings of
illegal aliens and foriegn nationals? Is it better to limit the rights
of Americas citizens, or its visitors? You cannot have it both ways
boys.

Bush & Co and the rest of the nation, are now paying the price for you
guys sitting on your asses for so long in your nice snug warm Cave of
Apathy ©. Deal with it.

I asked repeatedly for suggestions on how to solve the problem. All I
got was flack. Nobody had any..because they didnt want to look at the
roots and face the fact they ****ed up..or allowed their elected
officials, school administrators, etc, to **** up. Sorry pal..thats
burying your heads in the sand..and THATs whats got us into this mess
in the first place!!!!!

The world has gotten to be a very small place, and we ignored
Washingtons advice to Avoid foreign entanglements. Im not sure we
could have. We depend on too much of the rest of the world to become
isolationist or neutral observers. And the minute we get involved with
anyone..we will and did make enemies. Yall can **** and moan about it
all you want (Petey..shut up) but the genie is out of the bottle and
he aint going back in, no how, no way.

As a Libertarian..I abhore the Patriot Act, in spirit at the least.
Its draconian and has long term ramifications I find horrifying.
Still I get no suggestions on what else we could have done. This is
NOT a situation you can slap a little bondo and a coat of paint on it
and call it good. We have several million people out there in the
world who want you and me and your dogs and your wife and kids dead
dead dead. And we are Still giving them the keys to the front door.
The Left is still ****ing and moaning if we suggest asking for the key
back. And they have YOU folks to back them up. Useful idiots whom
will ignore the root problem and whimper and whine.

Question for you all. Do YOU know anyone harmed or negatively
effected by the Patriot Act? I dont, and I know a hell of a lot of
people, including a bunch of foriegn nationals. I hear a lot of
wailing and moaning about it..

Again I ask..what the hell would YOU do to fix the problem (Petey shut
up) without resorting to such a measure? What kind of damage control
Should we be doing Now at this moment and for the years to come?

Should we enforce the existing laws and track aliens? Should we close
our borders? If we do..the Left will hate your guts for suggesting it.
If we dont..more people in this country WILL die. Not if..WILL.
How many of the people deported or captured under the Patriot Act
would have killed Americans by now? None? Some? What are the odds they
were all happy campers just here to work towards a nice picket fence
and a vine covered cottage? Does that include the ones sending money
to AlQuida and the Taliban? Or the ones smuggling explosives into the
US? I wonder how many groups or individuals or acts of terrorism that
have been stopped that the Feebs are not talking about? Or do you
think the 19 Tangos joyriding in those aircraft were stictly an blip
on the radar?

Frankly boys..given the years of ****ups and apathy..I dont have any
answers either. While I do NOT like the Patriot Act in the slightest,
I dont see any other way to preform the needed damage control. I dont
like our boys and girls in harms way in Iraq or Afghanistan
either..but what else can we do but dig the Tangos and their
supporters out, root, branch and vine? Make the point that if you ****
with the US, we will send very large men with machines and kill you?
Works for me, if there are no other options. Got any? (shutup Petey)

Next election cycle..remember boys and girls..remember who put you
into this situation in the first place. Remember who was all touchy
feely about the rights of those whom want to kill your wife and kids.
Those people who stood by and watched the fire grow and grow then
started wringing their hands when you have to dynamite a fire line.

Remember too..9/11 didnt happen, 3000 innocent people didnt die
"because of the ooooiiilllll". That mantra simply will NOT wash.

9/11 happened, because you let it.


Gunner

"Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or
delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face."

-- Krusty the Clown, "The Simpsons"