"Dave D" wrote in message
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"Arfa Daily" wrote in message
...

snip



Well, I have 30 years experience in various aspects of electronics. I
have worked in the design, repair, construction and modification of
electronic circuits. However, in those 30 years I have not received any
formal training of any significance, yet have been called upon to train
others.

In your post you have IMHO managed to disrespect possibly half the group
or more, many of them knowledgeable amateurs/hobbyists or 'unqualified'
but talented pros who have no formal training- well done.

It's ironic that my opinion on this thread echos your own sentiments
exactly, yet you can be so sneering and condescending to people like me
who don't hold the same precious piece of paper as you do. I have always
respected and generally agreed with your opinions on this group, so I am
rather disappointed with your post.

Sorry, Arfa, but that's just how I feel. Did you really mean what you
said or was it posted in haste as a kneejerk response to a post you
perhaps found provocative? I sincerely hope it's the latter.

Dave

Hi Dave

I am sorry that my response to Mr Electromotive Guru, has caused you
offence. It certainly wasn't intended to. To answer your basic question ;
no, it was not a kneejerk reaction. It was a considered response to what
I felt to be an immature and unwarranted pop at me personally. As I am
really sure that you of all people know, I am not given to kneejerk
responses. For sure, occasionally I get annoyed with the odd knob-head on
here, and I might well post a sarcastic response, but it's quite clear
that I am doing that. I choose my words carefully, and generally, I mean
what I say, although I will accept that sometimes, such things as
cultural differences, may skew the meaning to some readers. I speak
american fairly well, as I go there quite a lot, and I am aware that in
many areas of america, very literal meanings are taken from statements,
that may have been intended as being rather more oblique, so I try to
avoid colloquial stuff, for that reason.

So, let's try to be a bit more clear on what I'm saying, for everyone's
benefit. I think a lot of the problem here is semantics. When I'm saying
" qualified ", some - including yourself - are taking it that I mean
having a piece of paper to say that you can do the job. Although in
general, with dangerous jobs, I do consider this to be the case, it has
to be tempered with common sense. If, like you, a person has been in the
job, and making a proper living from it, for 30 years, then a degree of '
qualification ' must be accepted. I would be willing to bet that
somewhere in the dim distant past, someone taught you at least the basics
of personal safety when working with electricity, and how to carry out a
repair in a way that was safe to the public.

I actually know many engineers that have no paper, but learnt their trade
many years ago by a combination of mentoring and book reading and doing
the work. I would not consider them to be unqualified any more than you,
and would trust them to give out good safe advice. On the other hand, I
also know many ' gifted amateurs ' who sell insurance or build boats or
whatever during the day, and could hold a converstion with you about
electronics, and sound very knowledgeable. However, I would not consider
them to be qualified to be giving out good safe information on dangerous
items such as switch mode power supplies.

I think that for the most part, the people who post questions on here,
and the lurkers, would accept this, and I would be surprised if they
would consider that I had disrespected them, as you say. I do not
consider that anything I said was "condescending" or "sneering", and by
the same token that you say that you have previously respected and agreed
with what I have said, and are now ' rather disappointed ', I feel that I
have to echo that feeling back at you, as I think that your choice of
words is ill considered, and I do feel personally affronted by them

Just as a matter of interest, based on posts that you have previously
made, if someone asked me to put a name to the 20 or so posters on here
that I considered 'qualified' to give valid and safe information, your
name would have been right up there with them ...

As I'm sure that you realise, if you stop and think about it, I have
never been one to try to cause offence to anyone on here. I have
contributed to this, and other groups, under various nics, for many
years. Like you, and others on here, I have very many years experience in
various aspects of electronic service work, and I honestly believe that
it is my duty to try to help others to benefit from that experience, and
become better, safer engineers - both amateur when appropriate repairs
are being attempted, and fellow professionals when they're in trouble -
and to that end, I willingly and freely give my time to the group, as I'm
sure, do you. However, I will not lie down and take personal attacks from
people like Mr Electromotive Guru who, no matter what he might say to the
contrary, does not *appear* 'qualified' to give out safe information. I
base this belief on statements that he has made in his posts, that have
also been picked up by others, that no person operating within the
electronics business, with either paper or life qualification, would
actually make.

These are just my personal beliefs, and I stand by them. I do not expect
you, or anyone else, to accept them unquestioningly, as any kind of '
guru pronouncement ', but neither do I expect them to just be dismissed
out of hand.

I have no desire to fall out with anyone on here, and if I have caused
offence to anyone, then I am sincerely sorry. However, if anyone insists
on being offended, then sobeit. I hope this clears up any
misunderstandings, and makes my position perfectly clear for the future.
;~}

Arfa


Hi Arfa,

OK, I've been a ****, I'm sorry.

It was this which drew my attention-

"unless you have had
proper practical training in the subject, and most importantly, its safety
angles, by someone properly qualified himself, I don't consider you to be
sufficiently trained or skilled in the subject, to offer advice about
potentially dangerous work to the electronically naiive. You are
completely
at odds with those of us on here who are qualified, when you claim to be
able to do so."

I fully appreciate that no offence was intended, but re-reading this I
still see it as being open to the interpretation of casting self taught
people in a less than favourable light. However- you are Arfa Daily and I
do misinterpret people occasionally! If you say it was not intended that
way I accept I am wrong and being over sensitive, your word is enough for
me.


Incidentally, no cultural differences here as fas as I'm aware- we're
fellow Limeys if I'm not mistaken?

I'm sorry if my words offended you, I really mean that. They weren't meant
to offend at all- but I can see I was rather, erm, 'direct'. My
disappointment was that it was you who said what at the time I thought you
meant, many other people would have gone unnoticed as I would have had no
expectations if you see what I mean. However, I withdraw my comments
entirely- I have got hold of the wrong end of the stick here, my fault not
yours.

As for falling out, that is the last thing on my mind I can assure you.
I'm a bit infamous amongst friends and family for calling a spade a spade
(though sometimes like in this case I call a spade a ham sandwich!) and I
don't mince my words which can get me into bother, but it is just my way,
I don't mean to come across as nasty. I also sometimes post after alcohol,
(check the time of posting ;-)) which kind of dulls the specific brains
cells (I have some-honest!) which deal with self-control, interpretation
and context ;-)

I do hope you can excuse me and forget about this, good people are often
too scarce on Usenet, you're one of them in my book and I'm certain others
feel the same.

Best Regards,

Dave



All accepted unreservedly. I can see where you are coming from on the
self-taught angle. I don't have any basic beef with self-taught people, and
I'm sure that very many who post on here to solicit help, fall into that
category. I would state again that not having formal qualifications, does
not preclude the possibility of someone being qualified to hand out valid
advice. I do, however, draw the line, where a person who is an amateur in
this particular field, considers himself to be qualified to advise a person
with little knowledge, on how to carry out work on dangerous equipment, with
scant attention to safety, and indeed to make light of safety advice given
by people who are genuinely qualified by virtue of either formal
examination, or long service in the trade.

For sure, sometimes this will catch people who are genuinely good safe
amateurs, but they are, I feel, in the minority.

Anyways, I guess we all understand one another's point of view now, and we
can get on and back to where we were. To anyone who has been offended by my
point of view, don't be. No offence is intended, and unless anyone else
wants to take me to task, I don't think that there's any further virtue in
pursuing it. d;~)

Arfa