Gunner wrote in message . ..
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:40:10 GMT, Mark
wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Then when we tighten up security and make sure it doesnt happen
again..the actions are demonized as violations of the Constitution
and Civil Rights..witness Patriot Act, Gitmo etc etc.

"and make sure it doesn't happen again"? You mean _try_ to make sure it
doesn't happen again. Even in a police state it is impossible to be
perfectly safe. In a free country it is even harder. But that is one
of the risks of life - not an excuse to turn this nation into a police
state.

I wish you folks would come up with a counter proposal to ensure the
security of the US, all the while taking money from the HUMINT side of
the equation, and solutions that do not violate (allegedly) someones
rights.

If you dont have any solutions..then you are part of the problem.

I'm all in favor of spending on HUMINT. But I'd rather endure another
9/11 than give government the unbridled power you want it to have. I
just don't get it - you are a libertarian, but you have no problem with
goverment power in the hands of the Right.

Here's something it seems most people (at least the Dubya Dogmatics)
have missed: Pre 911 there were rules and procedures already in place
but the rules were not being followed and procedures were not being done.

No ****..and who was in charge of this during the 8 yrs prior to 9/11?
Whom refused to fund HUMINT sources both foreign and domestic?

It sure wasn't Dubya.

Wife works for the local University. They were suppose to track foreign
students. Did they? Sort of but not really. Since 911 their suppose to
track these foreign students. Are they? Sort of but not really. Pre 911
I suspect they didn't force compliance because it may have caused these
students to take their money to a more friendly institution. Post 911,
at last report, the software wasn't working properly. There may be other
reasons.

I strongly suggest you take a look at the Administrations of those
Universities..and ask them what their take on the matter was. Those
bastions of Liberal thinking were refusing to follow those steps as
being harmful to the rights of those students. Want the cites


If the existing laws are not being enforced, the answer is to enforce them,
not to add new laws. That's practically a quote direct from the NRA/RKBA
people. Why doesn't it apply to security? Why do we need the Patriot act
when existing laws aren't being used, or are being used selectively at the
whim of those in power? That's the exact reason why the RKBA people oppose
new gun control laws - and they are right. More laws and more government
power is not the answer.

There is a simple test for any law: would I want this law applied to
me? Do you want the government to search your home/shop without a
warrant while you are at work? Don't say "I have nothing to hide".
What if that government decides you shouldn't own guns - then you
certainly would have something to hide.

Suppose Lennie called up the Bureau of HS and said "Psst, there's a
guy named Gunner up in Bakersfield with a house full of guns and
a shop where he's making bombs for terrorists." Only the last three
words are a lie. Do you want the BoHS or ATF searching your house
because of a tip from the likes of Lennie? Do you want to be in the
position of having do _prove_ you aren't making bombs for terrorists?

Another problem lies in Government Agencies. Agencies have their piece
of the pie and their intent on keeping as much of their territory as
they can. Worse, each department within each agency has it's own piece
of the pie and their intent on holding onto as much as they can.

Absolutely correct. I notice that most of them are still run by
Clinton appointees. However..since Homeland Security was formed to
address this issue..the Left is Still screaming.

As long as all these people work at getting and keeping as much power as
each of them possibly can we don't stand a chance.

Of course..politicians are politicians.

Exactly - politicians are politicians. Last time I looked, Dubya was
a politician too.

Gunner, you would be screaming bloody murder if a Dem/Liberal administration
was passing laws like the Patriot act. But it's OK if the Right does it?
Do you want that Act to still be in effect when the pendulum swings back to
the left? (Don't tell me it won't swing. It always swings both ways, only
the time varies - it might be the next election, it might be in 2050, but it
_will_ happen.)

Please don't insult us by saying these people are here for our good,
these people in positions of power are there for their own good, and any
good that comes out of it for us is incidental.


Some are, some arnt. 9/11 changed our outlook and the playing field.

You claim to be a libertarian, but your mistrust of government power
seems to end abruptly as soon as you cross the aisle from Left to Right.
Believe it or not, the Left does _not_ have a monopoly on abusing power.
It's human nature - power corrupts. The Patriot act gives unsupervised
power to government, and sooner or later, it _will_ be abused.

John Kasunich