In article , "Joseph Meehan" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Joseph
Meehan" wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
...


No, the problem is that we have a vast ocean of people pouring in
here, with no verification at all of who they are, or what they're
going to do when they get here. If they don't have a criminal
history, and aren't going to be a drain on society (i.e. get a
legal job
and pay taxes, instead of being on welfare), let 'em come. But we
have to know who they are before we can determine that.

I see fast oceans of people pouring into the shopping mall. I
guess we should start demanding verification that they don't have a
criminal history (forget the part about being innocent before proven
guilty)

Do you suggest that the operators of shopping malls should *not* have
the
right to keep out people who have, for example, a known history of
shoplifting?

Generally they do not. I worked in retailing for a long time. The
only time we had that right that I know of was a teenage girl who was caught
stealing a copy of Playboy. Even then the only restriction was for a year
while she received treatment and she was allowed in the store with her
therapist or parents.

Of course that is a diversion from the real question. Do you believe
that shopping centers should be allowed to prevent access by anyone who can
not prove the have never been charged with a crime?

No, but rather the converse: they should be allowed to prevent access by
anyone that *they* can prove *has* been convicted of one.


....

You're still missing the point. Maybe the guy really hasn't ever
committed a crime -- but without positive identification of who's
coming in, YOU DON'T KNOW THAT.

So you are considering them all guilty until proven otherwise.

For the third time, Joseph: Don't presume to tell me what I think.

I am only asking. So how about answering the question. Do you consider
(or let me add) do you believe the government should consider all those
wishing to enter the US guilty until they prove they are not.

Further, would you extend that to citizens of Canada, England etc.

Entering the United States, or any nation, is a privilege, not a universal
right. Any nation has the right to control who it allows to come in, and who
it decides to keep out.


I consider that the United States has the right to determine who is,
and is
not, allowed to come here, and that the reasons for keeping some
people out
while allowing others in would include a criminal background. Unless
we know
who's trying to come in, we have no way of separating those with a
criminal
background from those without.

So are you saying we should consider them all guilty until proven
otherwise?

I'm saying that we have the right to exclude anyone with a criminal history.


It
sounds like you live a miserable life suspecting everyone.

Unable to counter my arguments, you've now degenerated into personal
insults.
How very persuasive.


I guess I just
agree with being innocent until proven guilty

So on that basis, do you also object to an employer performing
criminal
background checks on prospective employees? Should a bank, for
example, not be
allowed to find out if an applicant has prior convictions for theft or
embezzlement before deciding to hire that person? Innocent until
proven
guilty, remember.

Frankly I have some reservations about it. I certainly don't think it
is appropriate for many jobs.

Answer the question. Should a bank not be allowed to find out if an applicant
has prior convictions for theft or embezzlement?


and I also believe that people
deserve a second chance.

That's fine. Let Mexican criminals have their second chance in
Mexico. Not
here.

I also believe that all men and women are created
equal no matter where they were born.

Created, yes -- but what they do with themselves after that is
something
altogether different. Some people are honest; other people steal.
Some people
work for a living; other people sit on their butts and collect
welfare. Do you
contend that we should make no distinctions whatsoever between these
groups
when deciding who should be allowed into the US and who should be
kept out?
....

You have not provided evidence that undocumented immigrants with
the type of real crimes we worry about.

And you're not paying attention to what's going on around you. It
must be nice to live in such a sheltered world.

Where is your evidence?

Again, where is your evidence?

I see it all around me. Open your eyes.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.