On 2/14/2006 10:44 AM Tim Daneliuk mumbled something about the following:
Odinn wrote:

On 2/13/2006 8:55 AM Tim Daneliuk mumbled something about the following:

Odinn wrote:

On 2/13/2006 1:34 AM Tim Daneliuk mumbled something about the
following:
[ snipped the majority, just going to hit on one point here ]


Your question has no simple answer, nor is there any "proof" - see my
earlier post about the non-provability of axiomatic starting
points. All
I can give you is *my* take on it. You may- or may not find it
responsive. Note that I am not trying to convert you or sell you
anything here, I am merely responding to your question in the only
way I
can. I am a Theist - someone who believes in an Author - for several
reasons:

1) Step back from the detail of biology, physics, or any of modern
science
and look at the Whole Picture we see so far - The Universe
taken as
whole. I know of no example *within* that Universe we're looking at
where Something comes from Nothing. All Somethings have a First
Cause -
another Something or Someone that brought them into being. It thus
seems reasonable to infer that the Universe itself had a First
Cause.

The fact that anything exists implies it came
from somewhere/someone/somehow.



Okay, so what is the First Cause for a god? Using your distinction
above, all somethings (god is a something) have a first cause. So
there is a first cause for god, where's the first cause for this
something that created god? Where's the first cause for this
something that created the something that created god? Where's the
first cause for......?


I hope this answers your question...


Nope, see my question(s) above.


Go back and reread 2c and 2d for my take on this.


I did. It still doesn't match. You can't say you have to have a
First Cause, then at some arbitrary point say it isn't needed. Either
a First Cause is needed for everything, or the universe doesn't need a
First Cause.


Either you have an infinite recursion of first causes or the recursion
terminates. The point is that in either case they are *causal*, thereby
leading to what we see today as the Universe. Absent something like this,
how would explain that anything exists at all?


I don't have to explain how anything exists at all. It doesn't matter
how it came into existence, nor does it matter if it has always existed,
it exists at the present. It's simple for me. I don't need some sort
of creator for the universe to exist, it simply exists. I don't need
some sort of mysticism to make my life meaningful.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7 SENS BS ???

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshiped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

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