On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:45:39 -0400, Kirk Gordon
wrote:
Glen wrote:
Everyone should be prepared for eventualities, some of them remote.
If you decide that you will exercise your right of self defense you
should at least have some idea of how you will respond if attacked.
Such thinking is the jump start you may need if and when the time ever
comes, it is not indicative of foolishness, and will not of itself
bring on conflict.
Gunners posting was meant to be humorous, and also there were some
important truths about conflict. Mainly that we should be better
prepared than any adversary when the time of conflict comes, I don't
think that is bad advice.
Ok. OK! I've been beat up enough. I KNEW I was wasting my time.
I didn't see the humor in what Gunner posted. It sounded an awful
lot like other things I've heard from people who were absolutely sincere
and serious. Maybe I was just in the wrong mood.
No Kirk, you did make some valid points..but they were based on some
flawed basic assumptions:
The part about being prepared to protect oneself is sorta
interesting, though. There's a not-quite-explicit undertone in all of
the responses to my post which seems to assume that I've never been in
danger, never dealt with violence, and that I live some sort of charmed
life which affords me the luxury of pretending that self-defense isn't
necessary or important. People who have faced danger, and who have
found a way to deal with it, sometimes appear to believe that thier's is
the only way, and that anyone who chooses differently must necessarily
do so out of ignorance.
If you feel self defense is important..why the insisting its not?
If someone is REALLY concerned about being "prepared for
eventualities, some of them remote", then doesn't he or she sorta NEED
the capacity to keep an open mind, and to recognize, habitually and
automatically, that things aren't always what they seem, and aren't
always as simple as they seem?
Absoluty required to keep an open mind! Which is why wargaming is so
important.
If a gun is a good and important way to protect oneself, then why is
it that several of the pro-gun members of this group are also
accomplished martial artists? Doesn't that mean that there are times
when a gun isn't the best defense? Doesn't it mean that there are
sometimes alternatives about the best kind of protection? If so, then
why the almost universal assumption that alternatives aren't available
to ME, or that I've never had any reason even to consider the questions?
Firearms ARE a martial arts. As is Iscrima Silat (knife and stick
fighting) Jodo (short staff fighting ..pool cue length G) etc etc
etc. All of which I practice, including some open handed arts. Each
have their place, as the weapon at hand is simply a tool. Some tools
are better than others, and some are more "universal" Cane fighting
is a fast growing art that is becoming popular with our aging
population ( search CaneMaster). Firearms are the one tool that
everyone can learn, in a reasonably short amount of time. Be it a
strapping 25yr old Marine, or his 85 yr old grandmother. It is NOT the
universal art, but its versitility is very large, particularly when
there is any distance involved past arms length. One should recall
Bruce Lee, when asked what he would do when confronted by a robber
with a gun..his response was "give him my money".
Firearms Are NOT the end all and be all, and in many situations are
not indicated. If the 14 yr old neighbor kid is knocking around your
8yr old daughter, its not considered proper to cap his ass. If a
rapist enters your grandmothers bedroom at 3am, its not expected that
Granny will give him a shoto hand strike to the wind and rupture his
aorta.
A firearm is JUST a tool. Period. It has NO intrinsic good, nor any
intrinsic good. Its just a tool. But a handy tool for certain
situations.A firearm, is the most compact of distance martial arts
weapons.
A fiream is used, not just presented, but actually discharged as a
last resort. In MOST cases, the simple presentation of a firearm is
enough to break off the attack, or cause the perp to seek other
climes. But if the situation escalates..one had best be prepared, both
mentally and physicaly to use that option of last resort, and in the
most effective manner, and in a manner most advantagous to you and the
disadvantage of the bad guy. There are no rules (just some suggestions
for staying alive) in a deadly force situation. The idea is to stay
alive, and Secondly, to stop the bad guys actions. If this involves
dropping to the ground and scurrying behind a parked car, and shooting
him in the ankle..DO IT! Ever notice all the TV shootemups where they
trade shots over the hood of a car? Hollywood. Shoot under the car at
the guys legs/feet and when he drops, shoot him in the head.
Knives..any practicioner of edged weapon arts, will tell you that the
winner of a knife fight is the guy in the ambulence. The looser gets
the chalk outline. Knives are handy for other things as well. So are
telephones, but you can bonk somebody in the skull with one.
Do you limit your tool box to only a hammer? Ever try to drive a nail
with a tuning tool? Aint happening. Ever try to tune a servo amp with
a hammer? See above.
Self defense is YOUR responsibilty, and having more than one tool in
your box, makes good sense. But some folks, like our Granny, have a
hell of a lot less choices than others.
I'd LOVE to live a charmed life, untouched by hazzards and hardship;
but it's never happened. I grew up in NorthWest Detroit, in places
where, even 40 years ago, the cops never traveled alone. I paid part of
my way through college by working the midnight to 8 AM shift, alone, at
an all night gas station. I attended Wayne State University, right in
the center of center city Detroit, where crime and violence were more
common than I'd really care to remember. I worked for years in little
machine shops in places that had fenced parking lots with barbed wire,
and where it was considered foolish to enter or leave the building alone.
Good for you.
And I survived all that without keeping my guard up at all times,
and without slinking around, trying to be invisible, and hoping trouble
would never find me.
Whom is advocating that? Not I!
I used to have drinks with friends after work, in
places where the only things white were me and the cue ball. (That's
not in any way a racist statement, or an attempt to imply that black is
scary or dangerous; but Detroit in the 1970's was a tense and nervous
place. Race relations, even at the personal level, were NEVER simple or
trouble free.) I bought snacks at lunchtime at a little place where I
literally had to step over the junkies passed out on the sidewalk. For
a while, I lived where I could walk to work, when I didn't have money
for a car. The walk was about a mile, down one street that was run by
an Italian gang of thugs, and another that was home to a Polish gang.
I'm neither Italian nor Polish, and I didn't belong on either street;
but I got where I was going anyway - every single day.
Good for you. I too grew up in Michigan, and spent an inordinate
amount of time in the Detroit environs. However..even in Detroit..it
was a kinder and gentler society in many regards.
Now, I'll admit that I've never been in the military, never
knowingly killed anyone, and never done things like police work that
involved volunary acceptance of danger; but that doesn't mean I've never
lived in the real world. And, I've survived the real world - or as much
of it as I've been able to experience - on my own terms, without a gun,
and without ever feeling the need to walk around with my head down, or
my guard up, except in very rare situations that are pretty easy to
anticipate and avoid.
Good for you, and may you continue to have no bad luck.
And, I don't consider myself to be exceptional. LOTS of people live
like I do. Many have faced much greater danger, and had more serious
problems, without ever developing the need to arm themselves, or to view
the world as an inherently threatening place.
How many traffic accidents have you had, and do you consider the
freeway a inherently threatening place?
There are a couple of signature lines, used commonly by several
group members, which say, in effect, that someone who doesn't own guns
must necessarily be afraid of them; and must therefore be less than a
man, and some kind of sub-human coward. I resent that idea personally,
of course; but I also wonder if the people who believe such things
aren't confessing their OWN lack of knowledge and experience. A friend
of mine, when I was much younger, did three tours of duty in the Navy
during the Viet Nam war - not on an aircraft carrier off the coast
somewhere; but in a plastic patrol boat on the Mekong river. He came
home with a whole box full of medals, including two purple hearts, and
with an absolutely unshakable dislike for firearms of any kind.
And I can speak for hundreds of folks whom visited the same place and
came away with an unshakeable belief in their personal responsiblity
to be able to defend themselves and their families. Myself included.
Lots of guys dont hunt, either, for the same reasons. I didnt for many
years.
Now, you can believe what you like about me. That doesn't matter
much one way or another. But if you really think that someone who
doesn't like guns is either ignorant or a coward, then how do you
explain my friend, who was defintely neither of those things? Could it
be that your OWN experience is too limited to include such people.
Chuckle..lots of guys came back from the Nam as drug addicts. Lots
came back and became preachers. Each of us handle our own personal
core beliefs in a different fashion. Such a River Rat/Brown Water Navy
guy occasionally posts on misc.survivalism. One of the nicest and most
knowledgeable fellows you would ever care to meet. Even tempered,
stable, witty, well spoken. And he still goes armed. One ancidote
doesnt make the rule.
It's one thing to keep your eyes and ears open, and to understand
that the world CAN be dangerous, at times. But it's quite another thing
to allow your whole life to be colored by the fear that danger lurks
around every corner, and that failure to be fully, constantly, overtly
prepared for it is proof of stupidity. Being alert and aware of your
surroundings doesn't just mean that you recognize danger in places where
other people can't. It should also mean that you recognize comfort, and
safety, and friendly faces, when you happen to encounter those.
No one is claiming that you should live your life in fear. Far From
IT!~ I suspect your biases color your thinking in this regard, based
on your posts. The goal is to recognize that life can be a hazardous
place, make certain preperations for bad moments and live life well
and fully. Too many of the people I know, whom dont believe in guns,
scuttle around like mice in a house full of cats.
If your view of the world is small enough, you probably CAN prepare
yourself to deal with it. And if you view your little world as
inherently hostile, then I guess that preparation just naturally
includes weapons. But the world - the real world - is a very big place;
and, if you're willing to face it without fear, it offers an endless
variety of things that you CAN'T anticipate, and CAN'T prepare for.
That's half the fun of being alive! Danger - at least the kind of
danger that a gun might protect you from - is not the world's dominant
feature. Open your eyes a little wider, broaden your horizons just a
bit, do some real, serious, open-minded versions of those 360
lookarounds, and you might find people and places that don't want to
harm you, and that you don't need to protect yourself from, and that
will welcome you into a whole new set of experiences that will actually
allow you to check your paranoia at the door.
Once again, you bring up the word fear. You over use it to attempt to
make your case. And as such, its useage by you is deeply flawed. When
you get into your automobile..do you Fear driving? Or are you fully
aware that Bad Things may happen in the next few miles and have
trained yourself to try to avoid them? Do you huddle behind the wheel,
quaking in your seat? Or does your head swivel constantly, mirrors,
windows, blind spot, controls again and again? Is that fear? Or simply
doing what needs to be done, to remain safe? Are you consiously doing
that? Or have you trained yourself for such that it has become
automatic?
Fear, in many cases, is healthy. It makes you do things that keep you
alive. Panic kills unrelentlessly. Ask any pilot. Fear is not
paranoia. Personally, when riding a motorcycle on the freeway in
traffic..Im the most paranoid son of a bitch on the road, because I
know someone out there will try to kill me sooner or later G
But you mentioned Color a number of times above..lets look at Color,
shall we? And lets see if it makes you live your live in huddled
paranoia:
http://home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/color.htm
I've been frequently asked about the Gunsite Color Code. Nowadays,
just about everyone is familiar with the "color code" used by the
government to indicate terrorist threat level. However, the color
code as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with
tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state
of mind. As taught by Jeff, it relates to the degree of peril you are
willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one
level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given
situation.
A lethal confrontation is not something anyone expects, and this code
allows you to have a sequence you can work with to prepare you for
"something bad." Jeff doesn't claim to have invented anything in
particular with the color code, but he has definitely spread the word
about it.
The color code defines four different mental states. Why four?
Because three doesn't adequately cover the needed range and five
simply adds an unneeded level. The four colors used are white,
yellow, orange, and red.
Here it is straight from the famous "Wednesday lecture."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
White - Relaxed, unaware, and unprepared. If attacked in this state
the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy and ineptitude of
your attacker. When confronted by something nasty your reaction will
probably be, "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."
Yellow - Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset
is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself." There
is no specific threat but you are aware that the world is an
unfriendly place and that you are prepared to do something if
necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and your carriage says "I am
alert." You don't have to be armed in this state but if you are
armed you must be in yellow. When confronted by something nasty your
reaction will probably be, "I thought this might happen some day."
You can live in this state indefinitely.
Orange - Specific alert. Something not quite right has gotten your
attention and you shift your primary focus to that thing. Something
is "wrong" with a person or object. Something may happen. Your
mindset is that "I may have to shoot that person." Your pistol is
usually holstered in this state. You can maintain this state for
several hours.
Red - Fight. This is your mental trigger. "If that person does "x" I
will shoot them." Your pistol may, but not necessarily, be in your
hand.
------------------------------------
Of course, they might also REQUIRE you to check your paranoia before
they let you in. And that can be a problem, if you're not brave enough
to face the world unarmed.
KG
Or if someone kills/maims/rapes/ you before you get there.
Your biases are showing, Kirk. The idea that you may someday be faced
with a Bad Thing, is considered paranoia?
Your tool box must be interesting.
Gunner
"Anyone who cannot cope with firearms is not fully human. At best he
is a tolerable subhuman who has learned to wear shoes, bathe and not
make messes in the house."
With appologies to RAH..