Tim Daneliuk writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Tim Daneliuk writes:

David Stuve wrote:


Walt, I would challenge you to expand your political horizons. Go down to
your local library, and do a Lexis Nexis search on Americans torturing
prisoners,

You mean aggressively going after *non-uniformed combatants* for
whom the Geneva accords do not apply. They can be shot on sight as spies


Torture is torture. Full Stop. Are the Geneva accords the only
document that describes how one human should treat another?

They are more-or-less the only ones we're obligated to follow
as a matter of international law.

How about as a matter of some abstract morality? So torture of
any non-american is ok?


Even our most revered documents say that all _men_ are created
equal, not all _americans_ are created equal.

Sorry Sparky, if you do not adhere to our social compacts you're not

My name is not Sparky. And I think you've misread the declaration
of independence if you believe that the the In/Unalienable Rights
are reserved to those who ascribe to the rest of the document.

"Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness"

entitled to their benefit. If the Brave Soldiers Of Allah (tm) (aka
Cowards Killing Children Intentionally) would like to make themselves
subservient to the social contract enumerated in our founding documents
then, by all means they should be protected by these same precepts.

Of course, during the time period of the documents, it's signers
were also considered to be terrorists and criminals by the British.

Until then, anyone who purposefully makes war on children and other
innocents should be removed from the face of the planet with extreme
prejudice. If you don't excise cancer early, you die from it.

Gee. Didn't GWB "make war on children and other innocents" in Iraq?
Certainly wasn't just soldiers that died.

Your facile analogy re cancer is clearly meaningless, as terrorism
isn't cancer and has absolutely nothing in common with cancer from
cause to cure.




if we like. There is both legal grounds and precedent for doing so.
And the "torture" in this case involves making them uncomfortable and
physically intimidating them, not, say, beheading them with a dull
knife like their compatriots do. Foreign spies are not entitled
to the same civil liberties that US citizens and legal residents


Who defines whether or not someone is a Spy, or a "unlawful combatant"?

International Law - you know, that body of blather the Left
trots out regularly as being superior to US law.

So what part of International Law allowed for the invasion of
a soveriegn country?



How can you trust the person making that designation if the
designation appears to be by fiat?


A person engaging in combat, not wearing a uniform is a spy.

A spy? Really? Actually, I think the term is "unlawfull combatant".
A spy is something completely different from a legal perspective.

The same person targeting non-combatants intentionally is a terrorist.

Or a freedom fighter, depending on point of view. (the french
resistance blowing up railroad trains in France during WWII comes to mind).

This is not definition by fiat but by observation. Unless, of course,

Who made the observation, did they really see what they thought
they saw, and can you trust them?

you buy the deconstructionist literary nonsese of the past 50 years in
which case words mean nothing (and you can't argue with me any more).

c'est what? (bad pun).



We have a court system. Use it. And forget the national security

No, our court system if for *our* citizens and residents, not for
foreign invaders.

If an illegal alien commits a crime in the United States, they
go to court, are convicted, serve their time, then are deported.
What matters the scale of the crime?

Ok. 3000 people lost their lives 9/11. 35,000 people will lose
their lives due to the Flu this winter. 50,000 will die
on the roadways just this year. Don't you think that the
9/11 incident has been blown all out of proportion?

9/11 cannot happen again the same way. And it is not because
of the creation of the Homeland Security department, or the
TSA (both of which will most likely be seen to be mistakes in
the future), but rather fortifying cockpit doors.

If the money that has been spent to avenge those 3000 had instead
been spent on law enforcement, medical research and smarter
roadways, we'd save many more American lives than the TSA
will ever save.


nonsense about someone's day in court. It is a convenient
excuse, but how can you trust the government to make that designation
without showing any evidence? All one needs to do to see
this type of questionable accusation at work is to look at the Padilla case.

I don't particularly trust the government. But they have an obligation
to thwart foreign invasion *by all necessary means*. One more time,
invaders are not citizens or even legal residents - they are not protected
by our laws, period.

How is an illegal from central america any different from an illegal
from the middle east when they commit murder in the United States, for
whatever purported reason?

Nobody is invading the United States. OBL has never stated his
intent to invade the US. Kill people yes, but many criminals
have stated a desire to kill people. Many more have followed
through. Those that have been caught, have been punished.

You've created a strawman.



no-bid contracts in Iraq, the forged yellowcake documents,

To misquote a famous person from history, "The Left is an Ass". the


You're a fine one to be calling names of anyone. The Right is an
Ass, the Left is an Ass, it's the moderates in the middle
that will save this country from both the left and the right.

No - the moderates will twiddle their thumbs and continue the long
tradition of mooching that the Left and Right instatiated long ago.

This is your "Republican Mantra" talking. Moderates have been
responsible for the bulk of the progress in the United States
for the last 200 years.

You do not "moderate" when someone is attacking you. You fight back
until they are dead and no longer a threat. No less a complete
socialist idiot than FDR understood this. Sadly, today's Left

"socialist idiot"? Reverting to Namecalling is a typical when
you can't argue facct.

is utterly without a clue on the matter.

And neither does the Right, sadly, as evinced by your pen.




However, it is the right that is ****ing the country up right now.


Today's Right *inherited* a mess caused by lots of different things.

This is the interpretation of the Right. It can hardly be unbiased, nicht wahr?
The Left believes the current mess was created by the Right.

They are being forced to respond in the face of the negligence of
Clinton, the failed endgame of Bush 41, the moronic foreign policy
of Carter, etc. Don't blame todays administration for the mess
because they didn't remotely create it. In fact, one of the few

Please. The first president in American history to invade and
occupy a sovereign foreign country that wasn't at war with
the United States didn't create this mess?

good things this administration has done is to respond vigrously
and without apology to the invasion currently underway around the
world. Had Carter, Bush 41, or Clinton done this a long time ago,
the problem would be more-or-less moot now.

The problem is moot anyway. It's simply been overblown by the
Republicans using it for political gain.

Where is OBL and when will he be brought to justice for the
crime of conspiracy to commit murder?

scott