In article , Andy Hall
wrote:
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 20:54:38 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:

This does not mean that they were the *only* options,
simply that others, which clearly work OK in non-union environments were
not tried or not even considered.

They tend not to work in non-union environments. Your asumption that they
do is without foundation and against all the evidence. Try looking at the
records of industrial accidents and industrial disease.

I simply don't buy that for one moment. If there were a substantial
issue, then it would have become apparent long before now.

If you believe that there is a statistically significant difference, then
please provide the evidence, with sources and basis.

It's a long time since I looked at the statistics and I don't know what are
now kept. At one time it was possible to see that numbers that could be hidden
(eg Accident book entries) were low in non-Union workplaces whilst numbers
that couldn't be hidden (eg major accidents inc deaths) were high in
proportion. That indicates that low-level accidents weren't finding their way
into accident books. As these are good guidance to inform management about
potential dangers and put working practice right before major accidents occur
- and to improve the health of workers - then that in itself indicates the
effectiveness of a union presence.
Check for yourself.

[Snip]

Of course it's objective. Do you seriously believe that the reason that
it is difficult to get good union reps is because they are not held in high
esteem by those who are fortunate enough not to be in business environments
where they operate?

It's one reason. Another is that they generally have to do lots of unpaid
work. A third is that they are frequently overlooked for promotion. Making
them not appreciated is a good tactic for bastrads to really make the job
difficult.

I am not questioning the integrity or good intentions of a union rep who
would like to genuinely represent his colleagues without a political agenda
and the "us and them" dogma that is rightfully belongs in history.

I am, however, raising the question as to whether the role of unions needs
to exist at all, and nothing has been said that gives me cause to see any
significant value in comparison with individuals feeling sufficiently
empowered to make their own arrangements.

I doubt whether anything anyone could say would change your mind. You deny the
obvious needs without being willing to debate them.

[Snip]

--
John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com 0845 006 8822
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