On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 20:41:50 +0000, Nick Atty
wrote:

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 18:37:28 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 15:58:35 +0000, Nick Atty
wrote:

Don't forget that there is a lot more to what trade unions offer their
members than just collective bargaining on pay (and conditions of
service equivalent to pay - things like holidays). In many cases they
provide an individual with a counter-balance to the size, weight,
expertise and legal budgets of the employer.

Sorry, but the boot should be on the other foot. The employee
should be positioning himself such that he is sufficiently attractive
to the employer in terms of what he offers and can negotiate for
himself.

Not every employee is as capable of this as you - or I - might be. And
actually it could suit the employer to have to strike one deal with an
informed union negotiator, than have to negotiate 300 with a bunch of
people with different wants, needs and understanding of the rules.

It could do. However, it still doesn't need an external
organisation.



If he is sitting back and relying on others to do it for him, then
there will inevitably be a disappointing outcome.

Well I know this is uk.d-i-y, but do you really do *everything* yourself
and never pay someone else to do it for you because they are better at
it than you?

Certainly not. I "outsource" all kinds of things. These are based
on whether I have the skills/knowledge (if not, whether I want to
invest the time to learn) and cost vs. time available.

There are a few things that I would *never* outsource. Anything to do
with personal career marketability, acquiring and maintaining
appropriate skills, agreeing pay and conditions are high on the list.
I simply don't trust anyone else to do it.


If you do, are you inevitably disappointed?

When I do buy services, (and goods for that matter), I look very
carefully at what I am buying and make it clear what I am looking for.
If that is agreed to, then I do expect to get it.
If there's a shortfall for whatever reason, there is a discussion
about fixing it or a price reduction.

I have a very simple principle in business. If I promise somebody
something, I will do it or not promise it in the first place. If I am
uncertain, I will point out the risks. This avoids confusion and
disappointment.

I don't look for more than that when I am buying something, but it is
surprising how many people are genuinely shocked when asked to do what
they said that they would do and haven't.




One way to look at a Trade Union is just this: they are a combination(!)
of an employment law insurance policy and a trained negotiator you
employ to work on your behalf. Because a lot of you all pay the union,
it doesn't cost you that much to employ someone a lot better than you
are to negotiate your pay.

I think that that is a crazy idea. Why would I want to employ someone
to negotiate my pay? Why would I want those to be the same as
everyone else's?

This goes back to my original point. If I have something that the
employer wants to buy (e.g. skillset etc.) then I should have no
difficulty in negotiating my own pay and conditions. If I need to
resort to asking someone else to do it for me, then I am basically
admitting that what I am offering is not sufficiently compelling to
the employer that he is willing to pay what I want.
This is a very tenuous position to be in.
In effect, it is letting the employer buy on headline price and to
perceive what I am supplying as a commodity. Not a good position at
all.




Of course, a lot are more than that, and a lot (including my own) get
far too political for my taste sometimes, but it is possible to believe
that an effective Trade Union can work well, and be to the benefit of
not just the individual employees, but of the employer as well -
particularly in cases where there are not many unions involved, and the
issues affecting one company don't leak out and affect others.

This is my other issue with them. Certainly politics has no place
whatsoever in this, and neither should there be any crosspollination
between companies.




I'll cheerfully declare an interest he I've been a member of a union
for 16 years now, an active representative for about 14 of those, and am
currently occupied full time on union business (although paid by my
employer - who obviously think it worth it). And at least some of the
individual cases I've taken forward have lead to people feeling
something far from your "inevitable disappointment".

My basic point is that the individuals should be encouraged to become
far more self reliant. If that were the case, they would not be
leaning on the crutch of a union.

If it works effectively in your environment for the moment then fine.
However, ultimately it is likely to be a hiding to nothing because
individuals are not being encouraged to stand up for themselves and
mass negotiation is not a long term effective way of developing good
employer/employee relationships. There needs to be something more
attractive to an employer than the threat of withdrawal of labour and
other business destroying tactics.




--

..andy