On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:04:17 +0000 (GMT), John Cartmell
wrote:



So none of them at secondary school were told they were just marking time
before going into the mill?

That's a very jaundiced view. All have become moderately to very successful
in their chosen careers. That is actually what ultimately matters

Were told by the headteacher - in a case I'm thinking about.

Very inappropriate. Was, is and always will be.



None of them notice the gross imbalance between funding for grammar and
secondary modern schools? You're not bothered that the 11-plus was sold as
a selective examination when all it did was cream off the number of places
available in far better provisioned grammar schools?

That's a loaded way to describe the situation, but I see nothing whatever
wrong in using a selective examination to select suitable education for
each child.

Neither do I. That's what was promised - but that was never the case.

The solution would have been to address the issues with the system as
it was, not to completely wreck it.


If the implication of that is that one form of education is more expensive
to provide than another, then so be it.

One form was given the vast bulk of the money. In education you can always use
all the money you receive.

Yes of course. Unfortunately, spreading it equally by head doesn't
produce the optimum outcome when taken across the student population
as a whole.




I don't see the need to keep attempting to equalise things all the way down
the track. This would be running the same argument that everybody should be
paid the same, and clearly that's just as much of a nonsense.

So it's OK to channel twice as much money to grammar schools 'because the kids
there matter more'?

That's a loaded and emotive way to express it.

However, if channeling twice as much money to one form of education
vs. another is needed in order for it to be effective, then I think
that that is entirely justified.

A five or six year course in medical school clearly costs more than a
standard three year degree. There are countless other examples.

However, that is how long it takes to complete that form of education
and it is deemed that that is worthwhile to "society" or to the
economy or both.

I see no reason not to apply the same principle all the way through
education.

It doesn't worry you that girls had to obtain a higher score than boys in
order to 'pass' the 11-plus simply because there were more grammar school
places for boys?

That certainly does, but could have quite easily been corrected without
wrecking the system for every child.

It was implicit in the organsisation. If you happened to be in the wrong year
- either more kids that year - or a brighter set of kids - or pitted against a
group that was coached (for an exam that was 'designed' not to be susceptible
to coaching! !!) then you might 'fail' even though your score was identical to
someone who 'passed' in another year.

It's implicit in any situation where there is competition. That's
how life is. Unless one completely eliminates the notion of
competition and passing and failing at things then there will always
be examples where people feel hard done by.



And 'failing' at 11 meant that your school had far inferior equipment, a
narrower curriculum, and you could be automatically rejected for better jobs
for life no matter how capable you might be or become.

That's a gross extrapolation which doesn't stand scrutiny.



You're not concerned that there was meant to be three types of school -
grammar, technical grammar, and secondary modern - but most authorities
never bothered about the second or hardly developed the idea - and there
was no attempt to select for those fitted for such an education?

Well... where I lived there certainly was.

Not on your description. How was the choice made between grammar schools and
technical grammar schools? In my experience there was no system at all.

There were grammar, selective and secondary modern schools. Initial
selection was made at age 11 with further opportunities to change at
13 and 15 and again for A level.

--

..andy