View Single Post
  #717   Report Post  
Tim Daneliuk
 
Posts: n/a
Default Some Thought On Intelligent Design - WAS: OT Is George BushDrinking?

wrote:
Tim Daneliuk wrote:

wrote:
SNIP

The problem is that public education is the worst of all possible
worlds.


How does it compare to a world with no schools, or don't you
consider that possible?



How on earth did you get to "no schools" from no *public* schools?



What you actually wrote was "...public education is the worst of
all possible worlds." 'Worst' is a superlative. In order for


Noted. I'd assumed some long term memory on the context of the
discussion. My Bad.

The
majority of us have the means and willingness to educate our children
(and the parents who do not have children who are lost no matter what we
do).



Not clear on the meaning of that parenthetical remark.


Corrected: (and the parents who do not have this willingness have children ...)


The significant reduction in local taxation engendered by ending
the public school system would provide more than enough funding for
individuals to band together to create quality private education of
their own choosing with an appropriate level of accountability. So much
so, that - based on historical behavior - there would be plenty left
over to offer "free" education as a matter of charity to the genuinely
underprivileged.



I suspect you overestimate the generosity of those parents.


I suspect you don't know what you're talking about. In the face
of egregious taxation, the US private sector (churches, corporations et al)
manage to give generously to all manner of worthy causes. Note that I
said "genuinely underpriveleged". You are not of that category if
your interest in school revolves around selling crack or forming
a gang with your similarly degenerate buddies. Such people are
deserving of nothing from anyone.





You would have us believe that ALL of the public schools, or
at least so many of them, are so bad as to be a complete
or nearly complete failure.


I don't believe that. But, I do believe that public education is a bad
deal. It costs too much, has insufficient accountability to those who
pick up the tab, cannot refuse access to even the biggest troublemakers,
cannot force parents to pay attention, and worst of all, opens up the
curriculum to debates about what should- and should not be taught a la
this very thread.



I challenge the comment about not being able to keep out the
biggest troublemakers. There is considerable geographical
variation and has been considerable historical variation over
the 20th century as to whom the public schools may or may not
exclude for any simple blanket statement on the matter to
be correct.


Only because of the neverending do-gooding and interference of
the courts in private life. A private school can set standards
that must be met for ongoing enrollment such as parental participation,
dress codes, behavior codes, and so forth. These should be enforceable
without government meddling since they are entered into freely by
the parent wishing to educate their child. I went to such an
undergraduate program. It had *very* strict rules about everything
because its roots were deeply religious. Their (very proper) attitude
was, "If you don't like our rules, don't come to school here."
Quite simple and effective.




...

Why not just admit that some percentage will always be lost and optimize
the system for the majority - i.e., Privately run and funded schools that
can enforce order and make education a priority...



Obviously:

Many of those who will always be lost have parents who can
afford to send them to private schools even if they fail all
their courses. While the management of all of those private
schools would rather not have students that fail many will
consider the receipt of tuition payment from the parents
to be more important than the success of the students.


Ah, but the money they waste so profligately is *private*.



Non sequitor in regard to the point above but FWIW relevent
to your remarks below.


It is not a non sequitor. What the parents of privileged
children do and/or the schools that educate them - or try
to - is of no importance to me so long as I do not have
to pay for it.



It has not been extracted from the hands of the good citizens
of that community by threat of government force.



That is what you say about nearly all taxation. I allow as
it as valid a remark here as whenever else you say it.


Taxation as a general method of raising government monies
is a valid method. But the government needs to be restrained
and confined to being in the Freedom business, not in the
Running Everyone Else's Life business.


The voluntary
misuse of funds - however stupid - is none of my concern so long
as those funds are not mine in any way, shape, or form (unless the
use of such funds harms in some way).


Meanwhile, many of that majority who would do well, or at
least acceptably in school will NOT have parents who can
afford to send them to private schools.


I disagree. We managed to educate a considerable portion
of the population - most of it less than middle class -
more-or-less privately up through something like the end
of the 19th Century.



It might be instructive to compare some idicia of education,
like literacy rates, over the last two hundred years or so.
I would be very much surprised if the peak literacy rate
was achieved prior to the advent of public education. I'd
also be surprised if you care.


There's little question that literacy rates today are at likely the
highest in our history. This in no way speaks to the actual
level of "education" people receive. Education is about learning
critical thinking skills, a grasp of what we know so far, some
basic facility in mathematics, language, & science, and most
importantly, the skills to teach oneself what is needed
as life progresses. By those standards, I'd argue that we're
not all that educated these days.



There is plenty of eleemosynary
spirit left in this country for people who absolutely
could not afford to take care of their children. Perhaps
too, this would serve as a future incentive for people in
these circumstances to only have the children they can afford.



Again, I think you overetimate human generosity.


I agree that public schools CAN be terribly inadequate, in-
efficient, and dangerous. Rather than looking at the
best of the public schools and trying to appy that to the
others, you propose a 'social Darwinism' of the worse sort.

Feh!


No, I propose we stop using the force of government (or the threat
of it)



By which you mean, again, taxation. See above.


to make most of us (who *do* pay attention and care for
our offspring) pick up the tab for the irresponsible minority
of people who have children they either cannot afford or cannot
be bothered to raise responsibly. I also am tired up picking up
the tab for a system that systematically indocrinates children
with collectivist political ideology, offensive (to many) moral
values, and a lousy perspective about their nation and its place
in the world.



As you know, a example does not prove a trend and a trend is
not the same as ubiquitousness. While there may be some
students and schools consistent with your complaints not
all are, nor I daresay are a majority. Complainst about


When was the last time you set foot in a public school
below university level (if I may ask). I have had the
recent experience of interacting with high school kids
who attended one of the best schools in their district.
By "interacted", I mean ongoing conversation on- and off with them
over a 4 year period. With one or two noteworthy
exceptions, not a single one of them was remotely prepared
for college. And this was one of the *best* school
districts (the State claims something like top quartile)
in a metro area of 5+ Million. I think my broad brush
assessment of the public system as a whole is likely being too kind...

the quality of public education should be addressed by
improving that quality, not by throwing away the baby
with the bath. OTOH, tha targument would not apply
if you would remain opposed to public schools regardless
of the quality.


I am opposed to them both on principle and in practice.
Take your pick.


Also as you know, a single counterexample does prove a
possibility. That there are good public school students
and good public schools proves that the system can
work. It is not inevitably doomed to degrade to
what you describe.


Sure ... *at some cost*. You can do anything within the
realm of Reality given sufficient funding. I could turn
any inner-city school into a paradise by offering each
resident $1 Million if their child scored above a 1500
on the SAT, for example.



P.S. By any reasonable definition, I grew up "poor", and English
was my second written/read language. I also attended nothing
but private universities and did so without
a dime of long-term collegiate debt. The secret? Get a job
(or two, three...) and pay your own way. I had the other
piece of magic on my side - a family that paid attention and
made education a priority. *No* amount of tax money will buy
that if it is not already extant in a family, so why bother
even trying?



The public school system does not have to duplicate your experiences
in order to achieve similar results. It does not even have to
achieve similar results in order to achieve acceptable results.


Public schools on the whole will never come *close* to achieving
these results on average. These schools have little- or no
accountablility for their results, they have no meaningful way to
demant parental participation, they are legally hamstrung and
cannot on the one hand exclude Bad Actor or discipline them on
the other. The Public School system is, by its very construction,
doomed to fail. The sooner we figure this out and eliminate it,
thereby placing the responsibility where it belongs - on parents -
the sooner we'll get better results. The largest opposition
from this comes from the NEA that doesn't want its ox gored,
and from the various political parasites and their hangers on
who (rightly) see schools as a marvelous opportunity to indocrinate
the students with their own polluted political, social, philosophical,
and or cultural ideals.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Daneliuk

PGP Key:
http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/