Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

If so, how does it behave? I'd like to make chair components using …›" slats glued to …ž" thickness.

Thanks ....

On Tue, 31 May 2016 08:13:10 -0700 (PDT)
" wrote:

Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

no experience with spanish cedar what are the traits

but what cedar i have used it seems very inflexible when completely
dry

i think the most recent cedar was some dry western red cedar


have never tried bent laminations and i know steam allows amazing
bends but have to have a steam setup of course

On 5/31/2016 11:13 AM, wrote:
Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

If so, how does it behave? I'd like to make chair components using …›" slats glued to …ž" thickness.

Thanks ....


I have not done bent lam, but I found spanish cedar tough to work with
because it splits so easily.
Make sure it is good and steamed and rubbery .

--
Jeff

On 5/31/2016 10:13 AM, wrote:
Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

If so, how does it behave? I'd like to make chair components using …›" slats glued to …ž" thickness.

IME, you should have no problem doing a bent lamination, as described,
with red cedar.

But, don't take anyone's word for it. Do a couple of trial runs from a
batch representative of what you will be using.

Why? One of the issues can be springback, and that often varies with the
wood.

My bet is you'll be fine.

--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2016 08:13:10 -0700 (PDT)
" wrote:

Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

no experience with spanish cedar what are the traits

but what cedar i have used it seems very inflexible when completely
dry

i think the most recent cedar was some dry western red cedar


have never tried bent laminations and i know steam allows amazing
bends but have to have a steam setup of course

My understanding/recollection is that Spanish Cedar is actually a member of the Mahogany family, not cedar...

On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 1:40:15 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2016 08:13:10 -0700 (PDT)
" wrote:

Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

no experience with spanish cedar what are the traits

but what cedar i have used it seems very inflexible when completely
dry

i think the most recent cedar was some dry western red cedar


have never tried bent laminations and i know steam allows amazing
bends but have to have a steam setup of course

My understanding/recollection is that Spanish Cedar is actually a member of the Mahogany family, not cedar...

btw, when I created a red cedar lamination, I soaked the 1/8" strips overnight, then gradually formed them to their new shape without using any binder.. I released the pieces from the form and after allowing them to dry, then glued them up (using thickened epoxy) and clamped them in position. Overall lamination was 10 layers with virtually no rebound effect after release.

Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

My understanding/recollection is that Spanish Cedar is actually a member of the Mahogany family, not cedar...

Maybe some background is in order -

The original plan was to make six garden chairs from Honduras Mahogany. We made the first two from Mahogany, and that was insanely expensive, so I looked for an alternative lumber. I found a wood called "red Grandis" a plantation grown Australian Eucalyptus (which is grown in Uruguay). That has worked reasonably well, but the local source has closed down.

I need wood for two more chairs, and I don't want to again the more expensive Honduras Mahogany. I haven't been able to find another source for the Red Grandis.

On 5/31/2016 12:31 PM, Swingman wrote:

IME, you should have no problem doing a bent lamination, as described,
with red cedar.

Sorry, meant to type "Spanish cedar", not "red" ...

the "s" thru "h" had fallen onto the floor, found them under the desk
for use below lol

What I said still holds true.

On that note, there seems to be some confusion about which bending
technique is being used?

"Bent lamination", as a method that does not usually involve steam;
"steam bending is a different method/bending technique altogether.

IME, "bent lamination" should work fine for _Spanish_ cedar, however.

--
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On Tue, 31 May 2016 10:50:32 -0700 (PDT)
" wrote:

I need wood for two more chairs, and I don't want to again the more
expensive Honduras Mahogany. I haven't been able to find another
source for the Red Grandis.

that honduran mahogany is really nice looking

surprised to know there is a eucalyptus that looks comparable

so you have six chairs and three different woods
seems like the last wood choice just needs to be close to one of the
other two

maybe it is time to repurpose some old furniture from the second
hand store or thrift store or garage sale or craigslist

wrote:
Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

My understanding/recollection is that Spanish Cedar is actually a
member of the Mahogany family, not cedar...

Maybe some background is in order -

The original plan was to make six garden chairs from Honduras
Mahogany. We made the first two from Mahogany, and that was insanely
expensive, so I looked for an alternative lumber.

African mahogany; specifically, Khaya ivorensis. Particuarly attractice
when quarter sawn (ribbon stripe). One source...
http://www.walllumber.com/premier.asp

Spanish cedar is a relative of mahogany but much softer. I've never bent it
but I wouldn't expect any problem were I so inclined.

.....t

surprised to know there is a eucalyptus that looks comparable

When I look at them side-by-side, the Red Grandis has a redder cast and the Mahogany looks a bit more yellow. By the way, I think "Red Grandis" may be the commercial trade name the wood is marketed as.

so you have six chairs and three different woods
seems like the last wood choice just needs to be close to one of the
other two

Normally, yes, but the chairs aren't all going to the same recipient. Two for me, two for a friend, and two for a friend's brother-in-law. They won't be seen together.

.....
On that note, there seems to be some confusion about which bending
technique is being used?

"Bent lamination", as a method that does not usually involve steam;
"steam bending is a different method/bending technique altogether.

I have steam bent parts for Windsor chairs, but this is strictly glueup.

I've glued up plies of …›" slats and clamped them to a robust form. The bendings are …ž" for one shape and …�" for another.

An large proportion of the stock ends up as shavings, An 8/4 plank yields a …ž" thick piece. That's a lot of waste for $9.50 per board foot.

On Tue, 31 May 2016 10:50:32 -0700, wrote:

I need wood for two more chairs, and I don't want to again the more
expensive Honduras Mahogany. I haven't been able to find another source
for the Red Grandis.

A friend made an Adirondack chair from Spanish cedar and it was
gorgeous. I've used it for the sound board on a hammered dulcimer and it
was beautiful there as well - finish was nothing but dewaxed shellac.

--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.

On Tue, 31 May 2016 17:38:19 -0700 (PDT)
" wrote:

When I look at them side-by-side, the Red Grandis has a redder cast
and the Mahogany looks a bit more yellow. By the way, I think "Red
Grandis" may be the commercial trade name the wood is marketed as.

i thought it might be

i have some blue gum but did not know there was a rose gum

Normally, yes, but the chairs aren't all going to the same recipient.
Two for me, two for a friend, and two for a friend's brother-in-law.
They won't be seen together.

then that is a different situation
now you just need to find some wood suitable for the chair style

i see a lot of nice wood on craigslist and i know a lot never
goes up for sale

most pro tree trimmers have guys that take certain species and
make furniture or cabinetry

depends what is local on what you can find

but the big question is who gets the honduran mahogany chairs

On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 10:13:12 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

If so, how does it behave? I'd like to make chair components using …›" slats glued to …ž" thickness.

Thanks ....

No Spanish cedar laminations, here, however....

Did you do bent laminations on the other chairs?

Your finished slats will be (1/8" thick and) 1/2" wide? That's pretty narrow. That narrow of slat should bend fairly easily. How acute will your arc/radius be?

The problem I've found with bent laminations, no matter what wood, is each slat has a tendency to twist, despite careful alignment. One portion of a slat will bend differently, than another portion of the same slat. Most of my BLs have been with salvaged lumber, so new lumber may be a better choice for making the slats.

New/newer air dried lumber should bend easily. Try not to use kiln dried lumber, which may be a problem or not an option.

When cutting your slats, try to have the wood be consistent (the wood grain and densities, all along the length, be equal... no knots or near knot areas, no anolalies, if possible).

Not only do a test run, as Karl says, but when you cut your slats, cut several extras. Cut them at least 1/4" (1/2" is better for wider slats) wider than your proposed finished piece. *Shaving/jointing down the assembled unit of a 1/2" wide bent "stick" might be a test in itself.

On your test run, as you bend each slat, listen for small cracking/popping sounds. If you hear many of them, then your wood may have a tendency to split, somewhere along its length. I would test compare two or more slats.... one having been wet over night and one dry. Check the difference (cracking/popping sounds) in each their bending. Spanish cedar should absorb moisture fairly well, for bending purposes.... *after a little reading here~~ http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/person...sh%20cedar.htm

Re Rocker - The backrest arc (bent lamination) on the left (my right) is 1/8" thick slats, 1" wide oval (finished) crown. I did have some springback of that crown after the chair was completed/constructed. Red maple salvaged wood, which absorbs moisture readily (possibly similar to S. cedar).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/438361...in/photostream

I've done several ER cedar laminations... not fun, not always pleased with the results, but results were good enough. No high end type projects. Cedar was not salvaged, bit had the logs milled.

Final word: Bending those small of slats shouldn't be a problem, IMO.

Sonny

On 5/31/2016 1:48 PM, wrote:

have never tried bent laminations and i know steam allows amazing
bends but have to have a steam setup of course

My understanding/recollection is that Spanish Cedar is actually a member of the Mahogany family,
not cedar...

btw, when I created a red cedar lamination, I soaked the 1/8" strips overnight, then gradually
formed them to their new shape without using any binder. I released the pieces from the form
and after allowing them to dry, then glued them up (using thickened epoxy) and clamped them in
position. Overall lamination was 10 layers with virtually no rebound
effect after release.

I wonder if soaking in water helps any? My thought is wood bending
requires heat, not water. Steam is used because it gets the wood hot
w/o burning it. You can bend wood successfully with just a heat pipe,
although burning is a risk. Also, my thoughts are wood is fairly water
proof, and soaking, even thin strips, wouldn't penetrate much over
night. Soaking in boiling water would do wonders because it heats the
wood, elasticizing the "glue" that binds the wood fibers.

My experience with bending 1/8" strips is they generally bend easily, as
long as the bend is not severe, and the wood is fairly straight grained
and clear of knots. Severe bends I'd go for steam. Really severe and
I'd go with air dried, and steam.

Also, cherry looks a lot like mahogany I think, and it bends well.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On Thursday, June 2, 2016 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:


I wonder if soaking in water helps any? My thought is wood bending
requires heat, not water.

Get a round tooth pick and break it in its middle, forming a "V", i.e., leaving the halves/legs joined. Pinch the legs together and stick the "break" on your tongue, to wet it, then place it on a flat surface (table/counter top) and watch what happens.

Sonny

On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 12:50:35 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

My understanding/recollection is that Spanish Cedar is actually a member of the Mahogany family, not cedar...

Maybe some background is in order -

The original plan was to make six garden chairs from Honduras Mahogany. We made the first two from Mahogany, and that was insanely expensive, so I looked for an alternative lumber. I found a wood called "red Grandis" a plantation grown Australian Eucalyptus (which is grown in Uruguay). That has worked reasonably well, but the local source has closed down.

I need wood for two more chairs, and I don't want to again the more expensive Honduras Mahogany. I haven't been able to find another source for the Red Grandis.

I am surprised your source for Honduran Mahogany is so expensive. Depending on where you live, you can find importers who will have some "shorts" of six to seven feet long and save a buck or two per board foot on the cost. My local source for Honduran Mahogany is prices about the same as oak in the big box stores. Worth a thought. Also you might use this (assuming you have not already) to locate some suppliers in your area.
http://www.woodfinder.com/

On Thursday, June 2, 2016 at 12:04:11 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 5/31/2016 1:48 PM, wrote:

have never tried bent laminations and i know steam allows amazing
bends but have to have a steam setup of course

My understanding/recollection is that Spanish Cedar is actually a member of the Mahogany family,
not cedar...

btw, when I created a red cedar lamination, I soaked the 1/8" strips overnight, then gradually
formed them to their new shape without using any binder. I released the pieces from the form
and after allowing them to dry, then glued them up (using thickened epoxy) and clamped them in
position. Overall lamination was 10 layers with virtually no rebound
effect after release.

I wonder if soaking in water helps any? My thought is wood bending
requires heat, not water. Steam is used because it gets the wood hot
w/o burning it. You can bend wood successfully with just a heat pipe,
although burning is a risk. Also, my thoughts are wood is fairly water
proof, and soaking, even thin strips, wouldn't penetrate much over
night. Soaking in boiling water would do wonders because it heats the
wood, elasticizing the "glue" that binds the wood fibers.

My experience with bending 1/8" strips is they generally bend easily, as
long as the bend is not severe, and the wood is fairly straight grained
and clear of knots. Severe bends I'd go for steam. Really severe and
I'd go with air dried, and steam.

Also, cherry looks a lot like mahogany I think, and it bends well.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

I needed to create a near 180 degree bend. All I can tell you is that it worked for me...

On 6/2/2016 9:05 PM, Sonny wrote:
On Thursday, June 2, 2016 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:

I wonder if soaking in water helps any? My thought is wood bending
requires heat, not water.

Get a round tooth pick and break it in its middle, forming a "V", i.e., leaving the halves/legs joined. Pinch the legs together and stick the "break" on your tongue, to wet it, then place it on a flat surface (table/counter top) and watch what happens.

I don't have a tooth pick, but I'm listening... I assume the wood would
swell some and bend a bit towards it's original position?

If you have a tooth pick, try soaking it in water overnight, then see if
it bends more before breaking. I'm not saying it will or won't, I'm just
curious. I do know to make wood really flexible, heat will do it, water
or not. Heat pipes are used for this sans water.

Very thin pieces of wood will bend on there own, to very tight radius.
For example, shavings from a plane curl up nicely. Thick stuff requires
heat, possibly because water alone will not seep in enough to soften the
stuff that glues the wood fibers together. I think this is particularly
true with kiln dried wood where the glue is really stiff, less so with
air dried or green wood.

Soaking a thin strip of cedar in water overnight probably would help,
particularly if the cedar were not kiln dried. Soaking wood in water
takes a really long time to penetrate the wood to any depth. A 3/4 inch
piece of wood soaked for days would likely not penetrate much at all, I
would think, and bending it would be unlikely.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 6/3/2016 8:31 AM, wrote:

My experience with bending 1/8" strips is they generally bend easily, as
long as the bend is not severe, and the wood is fairly straight grained
and clear of knots. Severe bends I'd go for steam. Really severe and
I'd go with air dried, and steam.

I needed to create a near 180 degree bend. All I can tell you is that it worked for me...

That's a good bend. Was the wood green, air-dried or kiln dried? I'd
think if you could get a 180 degree bend without heat, then red cedar
bends well, and the OP can forge ahead.

--
Jack
An ounce of application is worth a ton of abstraction.
http://jbstein.com

On 6/3/2016 11:36 AM, Jack wrote:
On 6/2/2016 9:05 PM, Sonny wrote:
On Thursday, June 2, 2016 at 11:04:11 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:

I wonder if soaking in water helps any? My thought is wood bending
requires heat, not water.

Get a round tooth pick and break it in its middle, forming a "V",
i.e., leaving the halves/legs joined. Pinch the legs together and
stick the "break" on your tongue, to wet it, then place it on a flat
surface (table/counter top) and watch what happens.

I don't have a tooth pick, but I'm listening... I assume the wood would
swell some and bend a bit towards it's original position?

Basically, the wood in _tension_ on the bent toothpick broke; the wood
in _compression_ expanded after is elasticity was increased by moisture
content added by the tongue ... resulting in the toothpick's "leg's
moving apart.

Thereby illustrating that the moisture content (water) of the wood plays
a part in the bending of wood, not just heat.

When any board is bent, the wood on the outside (convex) side is put in
tension; the wood on the inside (concave side) is out in compression.

It's all about increasing the elasticity of the wood fibers on the
compressed side of any desired bend, which both a higher moisture
content and heat will provide.

Introducing both heat, and a higher moisture content (most effectively
done by the application of steam) increases the elasticity of the wood
fibers, and, most importantly for bending, those that will be in
compression (concave side), by roughly ten times, allowing a much
greater radius of bend than with a board with normal moisture content.

That, unfortunately, doesn't apply to the side in tension ... thus
ultimately limiting the radius of a bend before breaking ... just like
the toothpick.

IOW, anyone wanting to bend solid wood of any usable thickness, and
having it maintain the desired bend, will use both moisture and heat.

That said, this really doesn't apply to the OP, as his was about "bent
lamination", a totally different method of bending wood.

--
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On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 6/3/2016 8:31 AM, wrote:

My experience with bending 1/8" strips is they generally bend easily, as
long as the bend is not severe, and the wood is fairly straight grained
and clear of knots. Severe bends I'd go for steam. Really severe and
I'd go with air dried, and steam.

I needed to create a near 180 degree bend. All I can tell you is that it worked for me...

That's a good bend. Was the wood green, air-dried or kiln dried? I'd
think if you could get a 180 degree bend without heat, then red cedar
bends well, and the OP can forge ahead.

--
Jack
An ounce of application is worth a ton of abstraction.
http://jbstein.com

No idea, just a piece of 2 x 6 cedar from the big box store lying around in my garage...I was trying to build a homemade cartop sculling boat carrier out of wood instead of the usual aluminum or SST bent plate. Radius is roughly 7"--8", so pretty tight. I tried forming dry, and heard cracking so I decided to try wet, thinking 1/8" thick strips loaded into a 4" diameter PVC pipe capped on both ends (full of water) was worth trying...

On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 11:45:50 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
I'd
think if you could get a 180 degree bend without heat, then red cedar
bends well, and the OP can forge ahead.

We don't know how long his boards/slats are.

The 180 degree value is not all you need to consider, no matter if steamed, heated only or watered only. What is the radius of the bend? A 180 degree curve in a 10' board/slat is "different" (Karl's tension notes), than a 180 degree curve in a 10" board/slat.

Agreed. He probably is ok with bending his slats with no assistance.

Sonny

On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 1:48:25 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 12:45:50 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
On 6/3/2016 8:31 AM, wrote:

My experience with bending 1/8" strips is they generally bend easily, as
long as the bend is not severe, and the wood is fairly straight grained
and clear of knots. Severe bends I'd go for steam. Really severe and
I'd go with air dried, and steam.

I needed to create a near 180 degree bend. All I can tell you is that it worked for me...

That's a good bend. Was the wood green, air-dried or kiln dried? I'd
think if you could get a 180 degree bend without heat, then red cedar
bends well, and the OP can forge ahead.

--
Jack
An ounce of application is worth a ton of abstraction.
http://jbstein.com

No idea, just a piece of 2 x 6 cedar from the big box store lying around in my garage...I was trying to build a homemade cartop sculling boat carrier out of wood instead of the usual aluminum or SST bent plate. Radius is roughly 7"--8", so pretty tight. I tried forming dry, and heard cracking so I decided to try wet, thinking 1/8" thick strips loaded into a 4" diameter PVC pipe capped on both ends (full of water) was worth trying...

looking to create something like this:

http://www.revolutionrowing.com/rowi...-car-rack.html

from cedar for carting my 1946 wood racing single to and from the lake...just seems like the right thing to do...

I guess I didn't make it clear that I've already made many bent laminations from both Honduras Mahogany and Red Grandis, and my source of the less expensive Red Grandis has shut down. What I wanted to know was if anyone had experience using Spanish Cedar for bent laminations.

Since the chairs are for outdoors, I need a suitable species. I'm considering any less pricey, easily and nearby available alternatives.

For what it's worth, I've done lots of steam bending for Windsor chair parts. That's not what I need for this project.

On 06/03/2016 2:42 PM, wrote:
....

... experience using Spanish Cedar for bent laminations.
....

Personally, no, but

http://www.advantagelumber.com/spancedar.htm

says it bends moderately well. I'd go check the US Forest Products Lab
site for the properties book as well if were wanting to know all there
is to be known--or check Hoadley...

--

In article ,
says...

I guess I didn't make it clear that I've already made many bent laminations from both Honduras Mahogany and Red Grandis, and my source of the less expensive Red Grandis has shut down. What I wanted to know was if anyone had experience using Spanish Cedar for bent laminations.

Since the chairs are for outdoors, I need a suitable species. I'm considering any less pricey, easily and nearby available alternatives.

For what it's worth, I've done lots of steam bending for Windsor chair parts. That's not what I need for this project.

Not really an answer to your question, but have you tried "lyptus",
which is a brand name for a farm-grown hybrid of eucalyptus grandis and
eucalyptus urophylla, marketed in the US by Weyerhauser?

Both my local suppliers have it for less than Spanish cedar.

Also, just a note in passing, Woodworker's Source is having a sale on
Red Grandis right now through I believe July 31.

On 5/31/2016 10:13 AM, wrote:
Has anyone had experience of bent lamination of Spanish Cedar?

If so, how does it behave? I'd like to make chair components using …›" slats glued to …ž" thickness.

Thanks ....



Alternatively, You can take an on line class for about $20.

http://ezine.woodworking.com/eZine/Craftsy-6-3-16.html

On 6/3/2016 12:36 PM, Jack wrote:
On 6/2/2016 9:05 PM, Sonny wrote:

Get a round tooth pick and break it in its middle, forming a "V",
i.e., leaving the halves/legs joined. Pinch the legs together and
stick the "break" on your tongue, to wet it, then place it on a flat
surface (table/counter top) and watch what happens.

I don't have a tooth pick, but I'm listening... I assume the wood would
swell some and bend a bit towards it's original position?

Was at a bar last night, got a hamburger and it had a long round tooth
pick stuck in it. I broke it in the middle and placed it in a wet spot
on the bar. Nothing happened at all. Placed it in a wet napkin, and
still, nothing happened... Next time I'll take it home and soak it
overnight and see if it will bend more before breaking.
--
Jack
Experience is what you get when you were expecting something else.
http://jbstein.com

If you have a tooth pick, try soaking it in water overnight, then see if
it bends more before breaking. I'm not saying it will or won't, I'm just
curious. I do know to make wood really flexible, heat will do it, water
or not. Heat pipes are used for this sans water.

Very thin pieces of wood will bend on there own, to very tight radius.
For example, shavings from a plane curl up nicely. Thick stuff requires
heat, possibly because water alone will not seep in enough to soften the
stuff that glues the wood fibers together. I think this is particularly
true with kiln dried wood where the glue is really stiff, less so with
air dried or green wood.

Soaking a thin strip of cedar in water overnight probably would help,
particularly if the cedar were not kiln dried. Soaking wood in water
takes a really long time to penetrate the wood to any depth. A 3/4 inch
piece of wood soaked for days would likely not penetrate much at all, I
would think, and bending it would be unlikely.