9 months ago, I put my entire life savings into the down payment for a
home (built in 1955) in the Oakland Hills (northern california)

My fiance and I recently found out that our monsterous 50 year old 255K
BTU furnace (70% efficiency in its day) has cracks in 4 out of 6 of the
heat exchangers and was emitting carbon monoxide (yikes!).

They no longer make residential furnaces of that size, so deciding how
to replace it has been an exercise in frustration and confusion. We
have gotten 5 seperate estimates, all providing vastly different
opinions as to what should be done to replace our furnace and
adequately and most efficiently heat our home. How is one to know who
to trust and believe? My head is spinning from all of the different
advice we've been given (which I'll detail further down in this post)

To complicate things further, our home was custom built by the previous
owner, and has a very unique open floor plan on the upstairs level,
which constitutes about 2600 sq feet of the home. There are 11
registers and 2 large returns on the upstairs level (although both my
office and our dining room have NO registers and we've been told they
can't be added) The downstairs level accounts for approximately 600
square feet and contains our family room (which has a single register
in it)and a guest bedroom with no registers in it.

The entire length ot the house, on both levels, has floor to ceiling
windows facing south that provide a breathtaking panoramic view of the
bay. However, they are older windows, with metal frames, and are very
inefficient -- the house loses a lot of heat when it is cold through
those windows, yet when the sun is out the vast southern exposure beams
through the house, heating it sometimes to the point where I literally
feel like a dog locked in a car on a hot summer day. We are in the
hills, and it can get windy, meaning it can get super cold at night.
Yet when the sun is shining, it actually heats up to the point that by
mid-afternoon I'm opening windows because it's too warm -- even in
November (although once the rainy season starts it will be cold all the
time -- I know this from our first month in the house, last February,
wherein we got a $550 PG&E bill that almost gave me a heart attack...
-- after that I had tried not running the heat, but even with wool
sweaters my fingers were still too cold to type and you can't operate a
touchpad with gloves on..)

We have a home warranty, which should cover the cost of replacing the
furnace, although it turns out that the list of uncovered items is much
larger than what is covered..

The home warranty sent out Company A to provide an estimate for the
furnace replacement. They came back with the suggestion of replacing
our 70% efficient 255K BTU furnace with an 80% 100K BTU furnace to the
tune of $6300, $2100 of which we would have to pay out of pocket. As
we were shocked both by the price, and by the size of the unit they
were suggesting (how could this adequatly heat our home?), I did a
little researching on the Better Business Bureau website and found
Company A had several unresolved complaints filed against them. Not
good.

I decided to get some estimates of my own, and had 3 seperate companies
come out to the house. Companies B & C each suggested getting a single
80% efficiency 155K BTU unit. However, we were concerned whether even
this would provide adequate heating AND we were informed both by the
home warranty company and by Company E (who provided estimate number 5
as a 2nd opinion on behalf of the home warranty company) that it is
illegal to install a furnace larger than 125K BTU in a residential home
in California. Is this true? If so, I'm even more bewildered as to
who to trust, as Company C is Sears - a brand I thought was highly
reputable.

Then there was Company D, which is a member of the BBB, has no
complaints filed against them, and is also an authorized installer for
Home Depot. This company provided the most thorough examination of our
home and took into account the materials it was made of, the layout,
and all of the windows, in addition to the square footage, in making
their recommedation. They suggested getting two seperate 80% efficient
100K BTU furnaces and using a "twinning kit" to make the units operate
as one, providing a total of 200K BTU to heat the home. In addition to
seem the most knowledgable of the contractors thus far, they also had
worked with our home warranty company in the past (and is only no
longer on the list of approved contractors b/c they didn't send their
latest proof of insurance over, which they are now doing so that we
might be able to have the home warranty company authorize their doing
the repairs)

When we called the home warranty company and told them of Company D's
recommendations, the home warranty rep told us that twinning is not a
proper furnace installation, and could actually cause our home to blow
up! The home warranty company said they wanted to send another company
out of their choice for a 2nd opinion (the abovementioned Company E).

When Company E showed up, they told us they would recommend putting in
two 80% efficient 90K BTU units -- that were twinned! We told them
what the home warranty company said about twinning, and they said that
was inaccurate and that they did twinning systems all the time and it
was the only way to heat a home of our size, and that the same home
warranty company had previously authorized such repairs in the past.

Yet when we next spoke with the home warranty company, we found out the
Company E had actually sent in a completely different job estimate to
them, with recommendations of a zoned system with a single 125K 80%
efficient BTU unit for the upstairs, and a 75K 80% eff. unit for the
downstairs. As such, there would be extensive ductwork modification
that would need to be done to zone the system, leaving us with almost
$2900 in uncovered costs.

(thanks for your patience if you're still reading this far!)

By this point I felt like my head was spinning, and could not
understand why the contractor who came to our home would tell us they
would be installing 2 twinned 90K BTU units, only to then send an
estimate to the home warranty company for an entirely different job.
The home warranty rep suggested I call Copmany E and ask why there was
a discrepancy between what they'd told us and what they told the home
warranty company, and to explain why they'd want to do a zoned system
over a twinned system. I'm already beyond 'house poor', so if I'm
going to be spending this much money I want to know that the job will
be done right, that the house won't "blow up", and that we will
actually have enough heat for our home (particularly the upstairs
level)

So I called Company E, and was told that the estimater said he thought
it would be more efficient to do the zoned system. When I expressed my
concern as to whether the single 125k BTU unit could really heat the
2600 sq foot open floor plan windows everywhere upstairs of the house,
which had 11 registers, not to mention the fact that the downstairs
level only has a single register and no returns I was told they'd have
to call the guy who did the estimate and then get back to me. They
later called me back and said "Yeah, he said you could do it as
twinned". So I asked then why did he submit it as being a zoned system
to the home warranty company, to which I didn't really get an adequate
response. I also could not get an adequate answer over which would
actually be the better choice for my home, but that if I went with the
twinning it would only save me $235 for the install of a second
thermostat (how can that be? wouldn't all the extra ductwork
modification needed for zoning drop the price down if the system were
twinned?)

I am looking to cut costs b/c I'm pretty broke right now, but not at
the expense of safety, comfort level, or decreasing the value of the
house by not getting the right furnace installed.

Meanwhile we have no heat, and I've no idea which (if any) of these
contractors I can trust. This is my first home, and I've been told by
numerous friends who have been homeowners for far longer that it is
*very* difficult to find a good HVAC contractor - and of course, no one
had any they could recommend.

I feel like I just don't have enough information to possibly make a
decision as to whether to go with a twinned system, or a zoned system,
which contractor to choose, etc.

I literally am desperate for some advice from those who are more
knowledgable regarding heating issues.

TIA for the help, and also for having gotten this far in my huge
rambling anxious post!!!

magichappens wrote:
9 months ago, I put my entire life savings into the down payment for a
home (built in 1955) in the Oakland Hills (northern california)

My fiance and I recently found out that our monsterous 50 year old 255K
BTU furnace (70% efficiency in its day) has cracks in 4 out of 6 of the
heat exchangers and was emitting carbon monoxide (yikes!).

They no longer make residential furnaces of that size, so deciding how
to replace it has been an exercise in frustration and confusion. We
have gotten 5 seperate estimates, all providing vastly different
opinions as to what should be done to replace our furnace and
adequately and most efficiently heat our home. How is one to know who
to trust and believe? My head is spinning from all of the different
advice we've been given (which I'll detail further down in this post)

To complicate things further, our home was custom built by the previous
owner, and has a very unique open floor plan on the upstairs level,
which constitutes about 2600 sq feet of the home. There are 11
registers and 2 large returns on the upstairs level (although both my
office and our dining room have NO registers and we've been told they
can't be added) The downstairs level accounts for approximately 600
square feet and contains our family room (which has a single register
in it)and a guest bedroom with no registers in it.

The entire length ot the house, on both levels, has floor to ceiling
windows facing south that provide a breathtaking panoramic view of the
bay. However, they are older windows, with metal frames, and are very
inefficient -- the house loses a lot of heat when it is cold through
those windows, yet when the sun is out the vast southern exposure beams
through the house, heating it sometimes to the point where I literally
feel like a dog locked in a car on a hot summer day. We are in the
hills, and it can get windy, meaning it can get super cold at night.
Yet when the sun is shining, it actually heats up to the point that by
mid-afternoon I'm opening windows because it's too warm -- even in
November (although once the rainy season starts it will be cold all the
time -- I know this from our first month in the house, last February,
wherein we got a $550 PG&E bill that almost gave me a heart attack...
-- after that I had tried not running the heat, but even with wool
sweaters my fingers were still too cold to type and you can't operate a
touchpad with gloves on..)

We have a home warranty, which should cover the cost of replacing the
furnace, although it turns out that the list of uncovered items is much
larger than what is covered..

Much snippage

I don't usually get involved in these, but I'll weigh in
with my thoughts FWIW.

Forget the warranty co. They are going to screw you out
of any meaningful settlement. The deductible or whatever
they choose to call it will likely cover most of their
out-of-pocket cost.

I think you should be factoring in the projected heating
costs for the next few years in your thinking. I bet they
will overwhelm you with fuel costs headed nowhere but up.

Here's what I would do:

Gotta have *some* heat for this winter. Bet you can get
a 100K 80% for $2000 or so.

Close off areas you don't have to occupy for the winter.

Do *whatever* it takes to cut heat loss from those windows.
Even if it's ugly.

Spend your cash on:
New energy-efficient windows.
Wall insulation (blown in). I bet there is little or even
none in there now.
Ditto for attic insulation.

For your office with no heat, consider alternatives like
Hydronic (hot water baseboard) delivered from a household
water heater. If you can run copper tubing to the area,
it should be possible. Or a thru-the-wall gas heater.

I realize time is of the essence. But don't be panicked
into thinking that you MUST have a heating plant big enough
to offset all the BTU losses right now.

IOW, a Spartan approach.

Jim

I think Speedy Jim's advice is prudent. Cutting your heat loss and
taking an incremental approach to replacing the heater sounds like good
advice. Maybe you can ask one or two HVAC vendors if they can install
one furnace now and then add a second twin later? Might let you
stretch out the cost over a longer period.

In any case, be careful if you decide to do insulation in your walls.
I live in a 1941 house on the other side of the bay from you in Menlo
Park. We have knob-and-tube wiring in the walls which by itself is
not bad (unless the insulation is coming off). But when I had
insulation blown in to our exterior walls, nobody told me that you are
not supposed to do that with K&T wiring. The insulation can apparently
cause the wiring to overheat. We haven't had any problems so far, but
I wish someone had mentioned that *before* the insulation was blown in.

I also am in the process of replacing our old single-pane steel
windows. If you want to consider replacing your windows at some point
I would be happy to pass along what I have learned about vendors, etc.


-csw

Have any of the companies done an honest-2-god btu assessment - volume
of the house, surface area of exterior walls and ceiling, surface area
of windows and doors, etc. ? Without that the whole calculation is BS.

I had a 125k BTU super efficient in my last house, which is in the
midwest and gets really cold in winter. That house was bigger than
yours and though was insulated, leaked like a sieve and had single pane
windows (fricking historical society).

You're in Oakland. The average temp in Jaunuary is 50. How much
goshdarn furnace do you need ? Have you gotten a single estimate from
someone who spend 2-3 hours measuring things ?

I bet your 50 year-old jobber was less than 70%, more like 50-60.

YMMV.

Warranty companies es teh suxx0rz.

I am an A/C contractor in N.Fl. I dont know the spicifics of you
climate in N.Cal but I do know Heat and Air in general.
I worked with a home depot autherized contractor in the Tampa Bay
area. I myself went to the Trane schools and on going education classes
as well as all the Home depot classes. I can tell you from that
experience that the guy from The home depot is the most qualified
person to do your job. HD does extencive research in choosing who will
represent their company to the public. If you can swing the cost go
with them. I have never had an unhappy HD customer. Also HD will give
you very flexable payment options that an indenpent contractor cant
offer. Steve

On 10 Nov 2005 16:35:27 -0800, "magichappens"
wrote:

9 months ago, I put my entire life savings into the down payment for a
home (built in 1955) in the Oakland Hills (northern california)

My fiance and I recently found out that our monsterous 50 year old 255K
BTU furnace (70% efficiency in its day) has cracks in 4 out of 6 of the
heat exchangers and was emitting carbon monoxide (yikes!).

[Major snippage of house description and contractor estimates]

I read Speedy Jim's recommendations and while he has good ideas, I
disagree with his priorities.

I agree you should forget the warranty company: it's a total ripoff.
Keep the cash to solve your current problems.

Focus on 1: getting a new furnace of some kind in there. As another
poster said, you're in Oakland, Calif., not the Midwest or Great Lakes
region (where I am, in western New York), so perhaps putting in the
first furnace in of a twinned system would be a good start for this
year. I'm a big believer in installing the highest efficiency furnace
possible. You can save some $ in that regard by not installing a
variable speed fan (which cost mucho bux when they break down, and
they're not super reliable).

2. I think you should not focus on replacing any windows at this time
because the ROI is so long; use the extra cash Jim suggested for that
toward a higher efficiency furnace. Instead, use a shrink film
product on those windows, viz.
http://www.frostking.com/windowweather.php I use the shrink
insulation kits every winter on my attic windows, and the reduction in
drafts is amazing. Cheap, too. Do the windows in a few years when
your cash supply improves.

3. If you can't add a register to that office, do as Speedy Jim
suggested, add hydroponic heat ($$!) or use a ceramic heater (another
tactic I use in the finished attic of my house).

And heed that other poster's comments about the insulation, but a 1955
house probably doesn't have knob-and-tube wiring. Good luck.

On 10 Nov 2005 16:35:27 -0800, someone wrote:

9 months ago, I put my entire life savings into the down payment for a
home......cut
I am looking to cut costs b/c I'm pretty broke right now...cut
Meanwhile we have no heat, and I've no idea which (if any) of these
contractors I can trust. This is my first home.....cut

Welcome to the world of home ownership!

No Mr. Landlord to call to just take care of it.

Tough when you use ALL your money to buy the place, and then what do
you do when something breaks, since now YOU are the landlord.

The contractors should show you their heat loss calcs. You don't do
this just by the s.f. floor area of the home. It has to do with the
exterior wall and roof area, taking into account their respective
levels of resistance to heat transmission and the areas of windows and
skylights, compared to the "design temperature" for your area.

The mere size of your house isn't all that big, but apparently it has
poor energy efficiency. If you hired your own engineer, you'd get a
straight answer as to what sized furnace was required (and whether
"twinning" was a good idea), but hiring your own costs money, which is
why most homeowners (not just you) want the contractors to do this
work "for free".

You may need to come up with enough for an engineering consultation if
you don't feel confident you are getting straight answers from
contractors.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.