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#1
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TS Setup/alignment questions
I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator today
to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions. I DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if anyone could give me some more direct answers to the questions below. Here are the questions. 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good way to mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for checking the blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to clamp the big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to it that way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is hard to read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the table. Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a tool specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for it, but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they built first. 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over ..002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that cuts great, FWIW. Thanks, Mike W. |
#2
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In article , "Mike W." wrote:
I can't help you too much with the first part... I use one of these: http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsalignerjr.htm 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over ..002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that cuts great, FWIW. Probably the blade. My Forrest WWII is slightly thicker at the center than it is at the edges; since the difference appears uniform, I assume it's intentional. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
#3
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"Mike W." wrote in message ... 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that cuts great, FWIW. What counts is the measurement at the tooth. Many blades differ in thickness at different points. |
#4
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Go he http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjiguse.html
for some more answers. Also, there is a link for mounting the dial indicator in the miter slot. I used something similar till I got a TSAligner Jr. http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html Darrell "Mike W." wrote in message ... I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator today to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions. I DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if anyone could give me some more direct answers to the questions below. Here are the questions. 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good way to mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for checking the blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to clamp the big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to it that way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is hard to read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the table. Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a tool specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for it, but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they built first. 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that cuts great, FWIW. Thanks, Mike W. |
#5
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As others mentioned, http://www.ts-aligner.com/ is about the easiest to use,
and that one tool, with some simple additions, works for the TS, BS, jointer, DP, router table, etc. The only items I've added are a straight edge, feeler guage, and a precision 45/90. For a good TS fixture, you might take a close look at what he did. That thickness variation sounds normal to me, as it's the teeth that count here. GerryG On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:35:36 GMT, "Mike W." wrote: I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator today to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions. I DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if anyone could give me some more direct answers to the questions below. Here are the questions. 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good way to mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for checking the blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to clamp the big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to it that way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is hard to read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the table. Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a tool specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for it, but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they built first. 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that cuts great, FWIW. Thanks, Mike W. |
#6
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Exactly what I needed! Thanks!
Mike W. "Darrell Dorsey" wrote in message ervers.com... Go he http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjiguse.html for some more answers. Also, there is a link for mounting the dial indicator in the miter slot. I used something similar till I got a TSAligner Jr. http://www.newwoodworker.com/dilindjig.html Darrell "Mike W." wrote in message ... I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator today to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions. I DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if anyone could give me some more direct answers to the questions below. Here are the questions. 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good way to mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for checking the blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to clamp the big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to it that way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is hard to read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the table. Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a tool specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for it, but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they built first. 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that cuts great, FWIW. Thanks, Mike W. |
#7
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Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to
something for checking alignment? I don't have pictures, but might be able to explain it. I recently borrowed a Grizzly dial indicator with a magnetic base from a friend, and found the same issue in using it to measure parallelism of the blade to the miter slot. Forget about the magnetic base & the other rods that came with as far as this measurement is concerned; just attach the indicator to a board and clamp it to your miter guage. A little more detail: I used a simple board (maybe 3/4" x 2" x 10" - the exact mearurements aren't critical) and drilled a hole near one end of it (from one 3/4" face through to the other 3/4" face). Through this hole you slide a 1/4" bolt (long enough to reach through the 2" of board with enough excess to slide through the hole on the dial indicator). Slide the dial indicator onto the bolt, add a washer & hex nut. Tighten the nut and you have the jig that I used. Clamp this to your miter guage with the dial indicator pointing toward the blade. Basically it should appear as though you're intending to crosscut the piece of wood that your indicator is attached to. It's only as accurate as your miter guage, but I found it to be accurate enough to get me some smooth cuts. -cm |
#8
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Hi Mike,
Looks like you got a bunch of good replies! I thought I would add my $0.02. 1. You looking to put your dial indicator on a stick. For low cost, simplicity, and ease of use you can't beat this: http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlitevsdistick.htm 1A. Yes, getting close to the table surface is important. You've already seen the problem with tilting the indicator. You could make (or buy) an Offset Bar like I put on my products. 2. Blade bodies are not always flat. They can be deliberately hollow ground, or they can be warped or cupped. What you are seeing is very typical. Measuring on the surface of a carbide tooth is not necessarily the best solution for two reasons: a. Placing a hardened chrome steel stylus tip against carbide can cause micro-chips and cracks. Yes, you can be careful but why even risk it? b. Carbide teeth are ground with a relief angle so getting consistent readings can be difficult. You can easily convince yourself that you have the exact same reading but in reality you are just measuring in a slightly different location on the side of the tooth. It's better to draw a dot on the blade body and take your measurements with the stylus on that dot (rotating the blade as necessary). Hope it helps! Let me know if you have any questions. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aliger.com Home of the TS-Aligner Mike W. wrote: I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator today to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions. I DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if anyone could give me some more direct answers to the questions below. Here are the questions. 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good way to mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for checking the blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to clamp the big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to it that way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is hard to read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the table. Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a tool specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for it, but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they built first. 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that cuts great, FWIW. Thanks, Mike W. |
#9
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Thanks... you're right, that price can't be beat! I guess I was trying to
make a simple problem more complex than it needs to be. When thinking in ..001" it didnt really dawn on me that a screw and a board would suffice. After looking at the comparison of the TS Aligner vs the 'Stick' I can see it's value. Thanks for the advice. Mike W. wrote in message oups.com... Hi Mike, Looks like you got a bunch of good replies! I thought I would add my $0.02. 1. You looking to put your dial indicator on a stick. For low cost, simplicity, and ease of use you can't beat this: http://www.ts-aligner.com/tsjrlitevsdistick.htm 1A. Yes, getting close to the table surface is important. You've already seen the problem with tilting the indicator. You could make (or buy) an Offset Bar like I put on my products. 2. Blade bodies are not always flat. They can be deliberately hollow ground, or they can be warped or cupped. What you are seeing is very typical. Measuring on the surface of a carbide tooth is not necessarily the best solution for two reasons: a. Placing a hardened chrome steel stylus tip against carbide can cause micro-chips and cracks. Yes, you can be careful but why even risk it? b. Carbide teeth are ground with a relief angle so getting consistent readings can be difficult. You can easily convince yourself that you have the exact same reading but in reality you are just measuring in a slightly different location on the side of the tooth. It's better to draw a dot on the blade body and take your measurements with the stylus on that dot (rotating the blade as necessary). Hope it helps! Let me know if you have any questions. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aliger.com Home of the TS-Aligner Mike W. wrote: I was messing around with my relatively new and unused dial indicator today to verify alignment of my table saw and came up with a few questions. I DAGS and got some answers to my questions, but was wanting to see if anyone could give me some more direct answers to the questions below. Here are the questions. 1) I have the Grizzly Dial indicator. I haven't figured out a good way to mount it to the miter guage or any other fixture to use it for checking the blade alignment vs the miter slot. What I have done so far is to clamp the big bulky assmebly that comes with it to the miter guage and to it that way... but that puts the indicator at an awkward angle that is hard to read... and you can't get it closer than about a half inch to the table. Anyone have any pictures as to how they mount their dial indicator to something for checking alignment? I'm hoping to not have to go buy a tool specifically for checking alignment. I planned on building a jig for it, but figured I'd check here to see if anyone can show me one that they built first. 2) When testing the blade alignment, tooth at front vs same tooth at back I get just over .001" out of line which is good enough for me. But, if I slide the guage along the blade the measuer varies in a range a little over .002". Is that normal for a sawblade to have that much variation in thickness or do you think it is the miter slot? I have a Forrest WWII that cuts great, FWIW. Thanks, Mike W. |
#10
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Charlie Self told me a quick and CHEAP way to align my TS blade. Here
goes: 1. Screw a board (I used a one foot section of tubafore) to your miter gauge. 2. Mark a tooth on the blade (I used a piece of masking tape). 3. Put the miter gauge in the slot and raise the blade all the way up. 4. Screw a screw partway into the end of the 2x4 so that it just touches the tooth you marked on the blade on the front side. 5. Move the miter gauge to the back side and rotate the blade so that your same tooth (the one you marked with tape) is right there next to the screw. If it drags or doesn't touch, you need to adjust the table. I'm sure your $150 table saw alignment tool is good for other stuff too, but I got within .001" with a wood scrap and 3 drywall screws. I ain't saying, I'm just saying. -Phil Crow |
#11
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If done carefully, what you described is just fine. However, we're playing
with imaginary number here. Most setups even with a dial indicator do not repeat to that tolerance without precision mechanical aids. Nor could you easily get that repeatability with a miter gauge. Not to mention that you gave your miter slot more precision than most machinest's squares. Still and all, a carefully made jig, which shows repetition in repeated measurements, is easily enough for this adjustment. Note the emphasis on repetition, as I've seen many people never check it, and it doesn't matter if you can measure to .001 if several repetitions give several times that variation. With a little thought and some careful work, you could also make a 45 deg reference that's accurate enough for many applications. The same holds for adjusting the fence parallel or slightly out from the miter slot. It's just a question of what accuracy you need for any specific task, and how much time you want to invest. For instance, I use a calibrated extended pointer for the RAS when swinging the arm. It gives me .006 over 13", takes only a few seconds, and is accurate enough for most uses. I have a dial indicator-based setup that'll do much better, but takes much longer, so I don't use it unless needed. GerryG On 23 Mar 2005 20:24:13 -0800, wrote: Charlie Self told me a quick and CHEAP way to align my TS blade. Here goes: 1. Screw a board (I used a one foot section of tubafore) to your miter gauge. 2. Mark a tooth on the blade (I used a piece of masking tape). 3. Put the miter gauge in the slot and raise the blade all the way up. 4. Screw a screw partway into the end of the 2x4 so that it just touches the tooth you marked on the blade on the front side. 5. Move the miter gauge to the back side and rotate the blade so that your same tooth (the one you marked with tape) is right there next to the screw. If it drags or doesn't touch, you need to adjust the table. I'm sure your $150 table saw alignment tool is good for other stuff too, but I got within .001" with a wood scrap and 3 drywall screws. I ain't saying, I'm just saying. -Phil Crow |
#12
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Hi Phil,
Yep, this is what I call a traditional "feel the rub" or "hear the scrape" method. It does work and some people are pretty darn good at it. Personally, I find it to be pretty frustrating and tedius because it's very subjective. Which end rubs (or scrapes) more than the other? Back and forth over and over until you think you're convinced that it's right. I prefer to just look at the dial on an indicator and see exactly what is going on without any doubt or question. For me, nothing can beat an objective reading on a dial indicator. And, since one can easily be put on a stick for less than $20, it's hard for me to justify spending a bunch of time on a subjective method. But, I value my time differently than others. You might decide that saving $20 is well worth the investment in time. Thanks, Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! PS: Ask Charlie where he put his money! wrote: Charlie Self told me a quick and CHEAP way to align my TS blade. Here goes: 1. Screw a board (I used a one foot section of tubafore) to your miter gauge. 2. Mark a tooth on the blade (I used a piece of masking tape). 3. Put the miter gauge in the slot and raise the blade all the way up. 4. Screw a screw partway into the end of the 2x4 so that it just touches the tooth you marked on the blade on the front side. 5. Move the miter gauge to the back side and rotate the blade so that your same tooth (the one you marked with tape) is right there next to the screw. If it drags or doesn't touch, you need to adjust the table. I'm sure your $150 table saw alignment tool is good for other stuff too, but I got within .001" with a wood scrap and 3 drywall screws. I ain't saying, I'm just saying. -Phil Crow |
#13
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Or, you could buy $1.99 worth of "objectivity" in the form of a set of
feeler gages. Then you could write to the rec, and tell how far(close) you were instead of correcting what did poor work and leaving what did good alone. But then Ed wouldn't make any bux.... wrote in message oups.com... Hi Phil, Yep, this is what I call a traditional "feel the rub" or "hear the scrape" method. It does work and some people are pretty darn good at it. Personally, I find it to be pretty frustrating and tedius because it's very subjective. Which end rubs (or scrapes) more than the other? Back and forth over and over until you think you're convinced that it's right. I prefer to just look at the dial on an indicator and see exactly what is going on without any doubt or question. For me, nothing can beat an objective reading on a dial indicator. And, since one can easily be put on a stick for less than $20, it's hard for me to justify spending a bunch of time on a subjective method. But, I value my time differently than others. You might decide that saving $20 is well worth the investment in time. Thanks, Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! PS: Ask Charlie where he put his money! wrote: Charlie Self told me a quick and CHEAP way to align my TS blade. Here goes: 1. Screw a board (I used a one foot section of tubafore) to your miter gauge. 2. Mark a tooth on the blade (I used a piece of masking tape). 3. Put the miter gauge in the slot and raise the blade all the way up. 4. Screw a screw partway into the end of the 2x4 so that it just touches the tooth you marked on the blade on the front side. 5. Move the miter gauge to the back side and rotate the blade so that your same tooth (the one you marked with tape) is right there next to the screw. If it drags or doesn't touch, you need to adjust the table. I'm sure your $150 table saw alignment tool is good for other stuff too, but I got within .001" with a wood scrap and 3 drywall screws. I ain't saying, I'm just saying. -Phil Crow |
#14
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Hi George,
I think "feeler" gages are very appropriately named! If you've ever tried them, then you know exactly what I mean. You literally have to "feel" how tight the fit is. Is it tighter on one end than the other? In my book, that's still pretty darn subjective, especially when you are trying to judge the gap between a big thin flexible steel plate (the blade) and some fixed reference (that tubafore/drywall screw or combination square, etc.). But, I can see how some people might think it's more objective. On the other topic, I don't make any "bux" by recommending that someone go out and buy a cheap indicator and attach it to a stick. But, that's what I recommended. And, I still think that it has great advantages over the traditional "feel the rub" or "hear the scrape" methods - with or without "feeler" gages. You are more than welcome to disagree. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! George wrote: Or, you could buy $1.99 worth of "objectivity" in the form of a set of feeler gages. Then you could write to the rec, and tell how far(close) you were instead of correcting what did poor work and leaving what did good alone. But then Ed wouldn't make any bux.... |
#15
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Nope. Go/no go and difference.
You went to a different school, I can tell. wrote in message ups.com... Hi George, I think "feeler" gages are very appropriately named! If you've ever tried them, then you know exactly what I mean. You literally have to "feel" how tight the fit is. Is it tighter on one end than the other? In my book, that's still pretty darn subjective, especially when you are trying to judge the gap between a big thin flexible steel plate (the blade) and some fixed reference (that tubafore/drywall screw or combination square, etc.). But, I can see how some people might think it's more objective. On the other topic, I don't make any "bux" by recommending that someone go out and buy a cheap indicator and attach it to a stick. But, that's what I recommended. And, I still think that it has great advantages over the traditional "feel the rub" or "hear the scrape" methods - with or without "feeler" gages. You are more than welcome to disagree. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! George wrote: Or, you could buy $1.99 worth of "objectivity" in the form of a set of feeler gages. Then you could write to the rec, and tell how far(close) you were instead of correcting what did poor work and leaving what did good alone. But then Ed wouldn't make any bux.... |
#16
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Ed,
Everything you said makes sense. BTW, I know I got within .001" because I used, ahem, a dial indicator that I purchased later. g I don't own a purpose-built TS alignment tool, but I have found that the ol' magnetic base dial indicator to be a valuable tool. On a separate note, I have a link here that has proven invaluable as far as tablesaw tune-up. http://www.puzzlecraft.com/Projects/HTMAP/07saw.htm Hope it helps somebody, anyway. -Phil Crow |
#17
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Hi again George,
I'd really be interested in finding out your source for such feeler gage sets. You say that you get "go/no-go and difference" capabilities for tablesaw alignment (less than 0.005" accuracy) from a set which costs less than $2.00. Of course, this isn't remotely realistic if you use the "tubafore" as your reference. But, for arguments sake, we'll assume that a nicer reference with square, crisp edges won't cost you any money (but honestly you know it will). To be even remotely as effective as the cheapest dial indicator, you would need a feeler gage set with increments of 0.001". I confess, I could not find such a set for less than $2.00. Maybe you could share your source with everyone here? As I peruse my sources for feeler gages I found a really super cheap set which might do it for $5.00. That same source sells a cheap indicator for $8.50. I think I would still opt for the dial indicator! The extra $3.50 is money well spent in my opinion! The school I went to isn't all that "different" from other schools. They still teach science and engineering, just like most other technological universities. And, after 22 years of "post graduate work" (i.e. real-life experience), I'd have to say that they did a fine job. I suppose it would have been a "different" school if they taught students to avoid precision measurement instruments (like dial indicators) in favor of more primitive methods of measurement (like feeler gages). Yes, that really would have been a very "different" school! ;-) All kidding aside, using feeler gages is a valid method. And, some people are very good at obtaining accurate results with feeler gages. I'm not one of those people. I don't have the skill to subjectively discern the subtle differences. I really don't believe the "go/no-go" claim because it doesn't fit my experience. When I slide a feeler gage between two objects, I get three possible outcomes: "absolutely no resistance", "slight to high resistance", and "no fit". This middle category is the key to accurate measurement with feeler gages and the primary source of my frustration. If I am comparing two measurements which both fall somewhere in the middle category ("slight to high resistance"), then I can't make a good judgement - especially when one of the objects is flexible (like a saw blade). And, if I can't do it to my own satisfaction, then I can't recommend it to others. Thanks, Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! George wrote: Nope. Go/no go and difference. You went to a different school, I can tell. |
#18
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Thanks Phil,
Yep, there's nothing like a dial indicator to give you that added sense of confidence! Yes, I've seen Steve's stuff. Just don't get too carried away! I'll say no more. You might also find this pretty handy: http://www.ts-aligner.com/videos.htm I finally got the Jr. video on the web site. If you have a high speed connection then you can get a personal demonstration of tablesaw (and various other machinery) alignment. It's heavy on the "what" but, since every machine is different, it's a bit light on the "how". Someday I'll get deeper into the "how". Comments/questions always welcome. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! |
#19
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#21
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wrote in message ... On 24 Mar 2005 13:40:46 -0800, wrote: Hi George, I think "feeler" gages are very appropriately named! If you've ever tried them, then you know exactly what I mean. You literally have to "feel" how tight the fit is. Is it tighter on one end than the other? In my book, that's still pretty darn subjective, yes, it's subjective. but it is easy to feel the difference between two feeler guages that are .001 apart. this is adequate precision for many applications, including tablesaws. Ayup. One will go, next won't, so the difference is how far. Not that how far is terribly important. It's the outcome, not the measurement. |
#22
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On 25 Mar 2005 12:51:05 -0800, scribbled:
Thanks Phil, Yep, there's nothing like a dial indicator to give you that added sense of confidence! Yes, I've seen Steve's stuff. Just don't get too carried away! I'll say no more. You might also find this pretty handy: Ed is showing admirable restraint here. If you want to know why I say that (or the context to Bridgers's post), check out the thread associated with this innocent post by charlie b: http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=g:t...0accesscom.com Best I can figure out, Steve Strickland's method is as in the following summary of the thread (quoting from the anti-faq): 3.1 HOW DO I ALIGN MY TABLESAW You first need to find the null axis of the warp or centroid of the cycloid of rotation. Note that the cycloid is adibiatic or asymptotically free. Be careful not to introduce a modulus of coefficients of dynamic dependant variables. Shag carpet works best 'cause it minimizes the saggita on your straightedge. You can use interference fringes or an auto-collimator. This will allow you to adjust your table saw to make cuts accurate to a gazillionth of an inch. Or you can use a dial indicator on a stick that fits in your mitre (miter, Floyd) gauge (gage, Keeter) slot. Luigi Who's been meaning to buy the TS-Aligner for a few years now. Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html |
#23
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I think you guys have missed a couple of things I said so I'll explain
in more detail. Aligning a tablesaw doesn't involve figuring out which feeler gage fits into a single gap and which does not. There are two gaps and the goal is to make them equal. So, the objective is to find one feeler gage that fits the same in both gaps. In addition, I said the blade is flexible. It acts like a spring. As you apply force to a spring, resistance starts at zero and rapidly increases to a specific level. The resistance stays at that fixed level over a certain distance of movement. Then the resistance increases exponentially. Translated: as you push your feeler gage into the both gaps, the force could "feel" the same but the actual distance might not be. The trick to obtaining accurate results with feeler gages is to stay out of that range of motion where the force is constant. You can do this with your "go/no-go" technique. But, that isn't going to be practical in the 0.001" range unless you have a feeler gage set with 0.001" increments and your reference has nice, square, crisp edges. A sloppy reference with rounded edges and angled ends will steer you into the constant force range of the springy blade. As I said, some people are pretty good at it. I'm not. And, to be honest with you, I have no interest in developing skills for subjective methods when an objective instrument (dial indicator) is faster, easier, more reliable, and cheaper. Yes, cheaper! Investing in a trustworthy set of feeler gages (not the $2.00 el-cheapo spark plug set at the local auto parts store) and a decent ground steel reference will cost many times more than a reliable dial indicator. What I really don't understand is why some people have such a fear of dial indicators that they will spend so much time and money to avoid them and then go out of their way to dissuade others from using them too. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! George wrote: wrote in message ... On 24 Mar 2005 13:40:46 -0800, wrote: yes, it's subjective. but it is easy to feel the difference between two feeler guages that are .001 apart. this is adequate precision for many applications, including tablesaws. Ayup. One will go, next won't, so the difference is how far. Not that how far is terribly important. It's the outcome, not the measurement. |
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wrote in message ups.com... I think you guys have missed a couple of things I said so I'll explain in more detail. Aligning a tablesaw doesn't involve figuring out which feeler gage fits into a single gap and which does not. There are two gaps and the goal is to make them equal. So, the objective is to find one feeler gage that fits the same in both gaps. The objective is to produce consistent results. Doesn't, never has required jazzbo instruments to do so. If it's off, it's corrected. Knowing _how far_ is as useless as the proverbial porcine mammaries. If you are incapable of detecting when a gage touches a piece of metal, well and good. The remainder, who are fully capable of detecting it, and only marginally interested in the magnitude of the difference, can and will survive. Get over it. |
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In article , "George" george@least wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... I think you guys have missed a couple of things I said so I'll explain in more detail. Aligning a tablesaw doesn't involve figuring out which feeler gage fits into a single gap and which does not. There are two gaps and the goal is to make them equal. So, the objective is to find one feeler gage that fits the same in both gaps. The objective is to produce consistent results. Doesn't, never has required jazzbo instruments to do so. I don't anyone ever saying that it did. I *do* recall Ed saying, several times, that using a dial indicator makes it *easier* to do so. Having done it both ways myself - with feeler gauges, and with a dial indicator attached to a TS-Aligner Jr - I have to agree with Ed. Using his jazzbo gizmo makes it a boatload easier. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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Doug Miller wrote:
Having done it both ways myself - with feeler gauges, and with a dial indicator attached to a TS-Aligner Jr - I have to agree with Ed. Using his jazzbo gizmo makes it a boatload easier. Ditto what Doug said but I'd substitute boat load for **** load or at least butt load. UA100 |
#27
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George wrote:
wrote in message ups.com... I think you guys have missed a couple of things I said so I'll explain in more detail. Aligning a tablesaw doesn't involve figuring out which feeler gage fits into a single gap and which does not. There are two gaps and the goal is to make them equal. So, the objective is to find one feeler gage that fits the same in both gaps. The objective is to produce consistent results. Doesn't, never has required jazzbo instruments to do so. If it's off, it's corrected. Knowing _how far_ is as useless as the proverbial porcine mammaries. If you are incapable of detecting when a gage touches a piece of metal, well and good. The remainder, who are fully capable of detecting it, and only marginally interested in the magnitude of the difference, can and will survive. Get over it. ". . . useless as the proverbial porcine mammaries?" Porcine means swine. Never heard of a suckling pig? How do you think mama pigs feed their young? Useless? Another example of trying to repeat an old saw and failing? Sure you don't mean "tits on a bull," or the less common, "tits on a boar." Sorry for the sarcasm, George, but an attempt to paraphrase an old saw as an attempt at humor when one use the wrong words always get my goat as much as a person using big words that he doesn't understand. Unfortunately "useless as tits on a pig" doesn't make any more sense than "useless as tits on a cow" or "useless as breasts on a human." Mammaries on all of the above are not only useful but highly desirable. Nonetheless, the content of your comment is dead on, or at least within 0.001 inch. |
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"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message ... Sure you don't mean "tits on a bull," or the less common, "tits on a boar." Sorry for the sarcasm, George, but an attempt to paraphrase an old saw as an attempt at humor when one use the wrong words always get my goat as much as a person using big words that he doesn't understand. Unfortunately "useless as tits on a pig" doesn't make any more sense than "useless as tits on a cow" or "useless as breasts on a human." Mammaries on all of the above are not only useful but highly desirable. Nonetheless, the content of your comment is dead on, or at least within 0.001 inch. Well, I guess swine come in both sexes, only one of which is commonly used as an example of non-utility. You missed what I though was an easily apparent attempt at alliteration. Shows again that there are there are usually a couple or more ways of doing things, and we follow our own assumptions or experience. With a Combo square and a feeler, I'm checked before they can attach the dial. That said, I think the luan test is probably the most sensitive means of determining the blade parallel to the groove. Take a piece of that nasty, splintery peeled veneer luan, fix tightly to the miter gage and cross cut it _through_ the blade. If the rear teeth pick up no splinters when cutting from either side, you're nuts on regardless of what any third mechanical device tells you. |
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George, I think that you should give this some more thought. What if
it's splintery when cutting from both sides? Are you going to try and ajdust it so that it's equally splintery? Sounds pretty subjective to me. And what about the cost of keeping a bunch of luan around for "alignment" purposes? Personally, I haven't had any of this stuff in my shop for more than a decade. I have no desire to buy any and if it cost me more than a couple of bucks then I might as well have bought a dial indicator (which would be much more useful). What makes you so averse to using a dial indicator? Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! George wrote: That said, I think the luan test is probably the most sensitive means of determining the blade parallel to the groove. Take a piece of that nasty, splintery peeled veneer luan, fix tightly to the miter gage and cross cut it _through_ the blade. If the rear teeth pick up no splinters when cutting from either side, you're nuts on regardless of what any third mechanical device tells you. |
#30
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Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears.
Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem? wrote in message oups.com... George, I think that you should give this some more thought. What if it's splintery when cutting from both sides? Are you going to try and ajdust it so that it's equally splintery? Sounds pretty subjective to me. And what about the cost of keeping a bunch of luan around for "alignment" purposes? Personally, I haven't had any of this stuff in my shop for more than a decade. I have no desire to buy any and if it cost me more than a couple of bucks then I might as well have bought a dial indicator (which would be much more useful). What makes you so averse to using a dial indicator? Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! George wrote: That said, I think the luan test is probably the most sensitive means of determining the blade parallel to the groove. Take a piece of that nasty, splintery peeled veneer luan, fix tightly to the miter gage and cross cut it _through_ the blade. If the rear teeth pick up no splinters when cutting from either side, you're nuts on regardless of what any third mechanical device tells you. |
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George wrote:
Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears. Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem? Just check the signature and all is explained... |
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Well George, you proposed the "luan" method so it naturally follows
that you're the one to answer questions about it. If you don't think that the sceneario is likely (or even possible), then say so. Avoiding the issue with personal insults doesn't bode well for your credibility. Perhaps now would be a good time to reveal if you've ever even tried to align a saw using this "luan" test (and how much wood got trashed in the process). On the topic of being "obtuse", what makes you so afraid of using a dial indicator? What compells you to speak out against such instruments and the people who use them? I think that's what this whole thing is about. I've admitted over and over again that the traditional methods do work and some poeple are pretty good at them but I just don't like them (because they involve subjective judgement). How about a concession from you stating that dial indicators can be used successfully to align a saw but you just don't like using them (for whatever reason). Maybe the location of my thinking has nothing to do with how it sounds to your ears. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! George wrote: Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears. Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem? |
#33
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I don't usually jump into other people's fights, but I have something
to add. I managed for many years to adjust my table saw to an acceptable level of accuracy without buying a dial indicator. At first, if it would cut wood without spitting it back at me, all was well. But as my skills grew, so did my need for more precision. Those burn marks on the edges just weren't acceptable anymore. I never tried the "luan method", but I tried most every other technique mentioned and even some that are not. I substituted a dial caliper for a dial indicator and got somewhat better results. Finally, this past Christmas, SWMBO sprung for the TS-Aligner Jr. and the 45 degree angle block to go with it. What a quantum leap forward! With the TS-Aligner Jr. I was able to check everything about my saw within an hour. I found that my TABLE was tilted about 60 thou front-to-back. A couple of washers under the table and I no longer get burn marks when I tilt the blade. Now, maybe you can come up with some other gadget that will measure accurately enough, exactly the same vertical distance from the table, to uncover that problem, but I can't, and I'm an engineer. After I got my table saw tuned up, I went on to my jointer, planer and compound miter saw. Guess what? My boards are smoother because my planer blades are the same height. My miters fit better because my miter saw was a little off. And I enjoy my time in the shop a little more as a result. If you don't think Ed's gadget is worth the money, don't buy one. But I'm sure glad I did. DonkeyHody "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore." - Mark Twain |
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George wrote:
Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem? Geez Ed, I'm a big fan of yours butcha gotta quit trying reason with the trolls. UA100 |
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"DonkeyHody" writes:
[...] Finally, this past Christmas, SWMBO sprung for the TS-Aligner Jr. and the 45 degree angle block to go with it. What a quantum leap forward! What, the least possible improvement? -- Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869 Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23 |
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In article , "George" george@least wrote:
Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears. Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem? You'd be much more convincing, George, if you'd actually answer Ed's questions and attempt to rebut his points. When the best you can do is to reply to a reasoned (and reasonable) post with personal abuse, you sound like a gasbag with an agenda instead of a person with a purpose for his actions. wrote in message roups.com... George, I think that you should give this some more thought. What if it's splintery when cutting from both sides? Are you going to try and ajdust it so that it's equally splintery? Sounds pretty subjective to me. And what about the cost of keeping a bunch of luan around for "alignment" purposes? Personally, I haven't had any of this stuff in my shop for more than a decade. I have no desire to buy any and if it cost me more than a couple of bucks then I might as well have bought a dial indicator (which would be much more useful). What makes you so averse to using a dial indicator? Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! George wrote: That said, I think the luan test is probably the most sensitive means of determining the blade parallel to the groove. Take a piece of that nasty, splintery peeled veneer luan, fix tightly to the miter gage and cross cut it _through_ the blade. If the rear teeth pick up no splinters when cutting from either side, you're nuts on regardless of what any third mechanical device tells you. -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? |
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"Doug Miller" wrote in message om... In article , "George" george@least wrote: Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears. Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem? You'd be much more convincing, George, if you'd actually answer Ed's questions and attempt to rebut his points. When the best you can do is to reply to a reasoned (and reasonable) post with personal abuse, you sound like a gasbag with an agenda instead of a person with a purpose for his actions. Well, Doug, while I am foolish enough to presume some intelligence on the part of most posters, answering their question rather than posing and answering mine, I will make an exception in your case, given your record. Ed has an agenda, and his thoughts, or lack of same, seem to spring from the vicinity of his wallet. I stated from the beginning that I was a result-oriented woodworker, not a gadget man, and have offered up three alternatives to the gadget, designed to determine direction, not distance, that being essentially worthless information, lacking some similarly calibrated device with which to make the compensation. You might try actually reading the posts before you flap your digital gums - a weakness I have noticed in you. If you are unable to use a simple feeler gage to determine touch/no touch as Ed pretends, I suggest both of you do everything in your power to avoid tailed tools and sharp edges. Beyond that, I will also suggest that you are incapable of using his device properly, as it does require some dexterity. I don't think anyone is that clumsy or that obtuse, therefore I suspect Ed is just being a PITA. I know you are. |
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You're probably right. I really would like to understand why some
people have a "dial-indicator phobia". Obviously, George is severely afflicted. After reading through it several times, his explanation to Doug still sounds like nonsense: "...three alternatives to the gadget, designed to determine direction, not distance, that being essentially worthless information, lacking some similarly calibrated device with which to make the compensation." The best I can figure is that George thinks that a dial indicator is only good for determining "direction, not distance." Or, is it the three alternatives which are only good at direction? Is George calling something worthless or is he saying that I'm calling something worthless? Nothing like a good run-on sentance with to really confuse everyone! Just in case... I didn't call any of the methods George presented "worthless". I didn't tell anyone not to use them. All I said was the *I* don't like them and I explained exactly why. George has yet to explain exactly why he doesn't like dial indicators. Ed Bennett http://www.ts-aligner.com Home of the TS-Aligner! Unisaw A-100 wrote: George wrote: Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem? Geez Ed, I'm a big fan of yours butcha gotta quit trying reason with the trolls. UA100 |
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Ed Bennett:
Obviously, George is severely afflicted. Yeah I had a similar run in with him a while back over band saw alignment. I was making a case for wheels not needing to be "exactly" (dead nuts David) coplanar. George came out of left field with some gibberish not even having anything to do with coplanar. I had the damnest time trying to figure out what point he was making. I eventually gave up. UA100 |
#40
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"Unisaw A-100" wrote in message ... Ed Bennett: Obviously, George is severely afflicted. Yeah I had a similar run in with him a while back over band saw alignment. I was making a case for wheels not needing to be "exactly" (dead nuts David) coplanar. George came out of left field with some gibberish not even having anything to do with coplanar. I had the damnest time trying to figure out what point he was making. I eventually gave up. Memories differ. Your assertion was that coplanarity was unimportant. Mine that setting up initial coplanarity gave full range of adjustment for subsequent blade tracking. Look it up, but I have a feeling you won't. You didn't seem to comprehend much then, either. If ever there was a case of measure with a micrometer and cut with a meat axe, it's Ed's toy. "It's .003 off to the left, so how many times do I need to hit the rear trunnion bolt with this mallet for .003?" |
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