Heating a shop
 

I have a fully insulated 13'x24' shop that I'd like to install baseboard
heat in. Tired of sniffy Kerosene fumes from either the Redi-Heater (to
bring it up to temp) or the Kero-Sun heater that keeps it comfy.

Electric heat is my only practical option and I'm well aware of the cost
since my entire home is electric baseboard and I've survived 30 years of
bills so...g

Question I have is I noted at least one gentleman here, Ken Vaughn, has
used a "soft heat" hydroponic electric baseboard. Not adverse to going
that route but why hydroponic? Is is safer than conventional convection
electric baseboard?

Price is about 8 times conventional baseboard and guarantee is 5 years
vs. lifetime. I could care less about smooth, even, quiet heat. I just
want heat and no open flames.

I realize that sawdust, etc. migrating to the fins and calrod element
will likely smell up the place but won't they also with the "soft heat"?
Installation and clearances are similar for both.

Bottom line: If the choice is between conventional and hydroponic, am I
courting disaster by installing conventional in a shop?

Thanks

Bob

Unquestionably Confused wrote in
m:

I have a fully insulated 13'x24' shop that I'd like to install baseboard
heat in. Tired of sniffy Kerosene fumes from either the Redi-Heater (to
bring it up to temp) or the Kero-Sun heater that keeps it comfy.

Electric heat is my only practical option and I'm well aware of the cost
since my entire home is electric baseboard and I've survived 30 years of
bills so...g


I am thinking wood stove here. I have an all electric place also. I think I
would have planty of wood from cutoffs to keep my scrawney butt warm. :-)
Course, you may live in a much colder area than I do. I'm in Central Texas.

Michael Burton responds:

Unquestionably Confused wrote in
om:

I have a fully insulated 13'x24' shop that I'd like to install baseboard
heat in. Tired of sniffy Kerosene fumes from either the Redi-Heater (to
bring it up to temp) or the Kero-Sun heater that keeps it comfy.

Electric heat is my only practical option and I'm well aware of the cost
since my entire home is electric baseboard and I've survived 30 years of
bills so...g


I am thinking wood stove here. I have an all electric place also. I think I
would have planty of wood from cutoffs to keep my scrawney butt warm. :-)
Course, you may live in a much colder area than I do. I'm in Central Texas.

Wood heat is good. A friend does all his heating with wood, in a 24' x 40'
shop, and in his 20' x 20' "shed" that he uses for storage and working with
welders (steel building, concrete floor, while the shop is wood and wood). But
it's a PITA in several ways: you have to be exceptionally careful about the use
of finishing materials when heating; you lose more shop space; it can take a
long, long time to get a cold shop up to working temperature; firewood storage
eats space; hauling your ashes, in this case, is a nuisance.

I know another person, a local instrument maker, who actually planned for wood
heat when he built his shop more than a decade ago. He isolated it, because he
needs to be able to finish instruments at any time. His wood stove is actually
in the basement and heats the shop (the shop and basement are both in the same
building, which is not a residence) indirectly, so that sparking off finishes
is not a problem. And all the mess is confined to a concrete floored and walled
area.

That's central Virginia, and right now we're in a screwy warm spell (67
yesterday, currently [4:30 a.m. or so] about 48), but normally we'd be
shivering decently this time of year, though nothing like my days in and around
Albany, NY.

Charlie Self
"I think we agree, the past is over." George W. Bush

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

That's central Virginia, and right now we're in a screwy warm spell (67
yesterday, currently [4:30 a.m. or so] about 48), but normally we'd be
shivering decently this time of year, though nothing like my days in and
around
Albany, NY.


Oh Charlie - you'd love it this year. Not much snow (only a few feet all
season long, so far) and the temps over the past week and half to two weeks
have been reaching for the 50's. This is Syracuse I'm talking about but
Albany is about the same. It's made for some pretty sucky snowmobiling.
--

-Mike-

I was just reading this and the first thought that comes into my head
is 'fire hazard'! Unless you have a state of the art dust collector
and sweep the shop daily, you're going to have some sawdust kicking
around. Mix that with burning wood... hmmm... doesn't sound to
safe to me... In fact, a baseboard heater mounted at floor level
doesn't necessarily sound to safe either.



JMHO.

John

Unquestionably Confused wrote:
I have a fully insulated 13'x24' shop that I'd like to install baseboard
heat in. Tired of sniffy Kerosene fumes from either the Redi-Heater (to
bring it up to temp) or the Kero-Sun heater that keeps it comfy.

Electric heat is my only practical option and I'm well aware of the cost
since my entire home is electric baseboard and I've survived 30 years of
bills so...g

Question I have is I noted at least one gentleman here, Ken Vaughn, has
used a "soft heat" hydroponic electric baseboard. Not adverse to going
that route but why hydroponic? Is is safer than conventional convection
electric baseboard?

Price is about 8 times conventional baseboard and guarantee is 5 years
vs. lifetime. I could care less about smooth, even, quiet heat. I just
want heat and no open flames.

I realize that sawdust, etc. migrating to the fins and calrod element
will likely smell up the place but won't they also with the "soft heat"?
Installation and clearances are similar for both.

Bottom line: If the choice is between conventional and hydroponic, am I
courting disaster by installing conventional in a shop?

Thanks

Bob

I just use a couple of those cube ceramic heaters when I
need them. Most of the time just turning off the air
conditioner suffices.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

Chaste makes waste.





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On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 16:42:25 -0500, Robatoy wrote:

I heat mine with a 4800 watt fan-forced construction heater. Paid 69
dollars Canadian for it, and is more than enough. I wired in a wall
mounted thermostat. Clean, fast, safe heat. (They also called barn
heaters around these parts)

Me too, but only paid $20.00 for mine. But thenn, my electric bill went up
by $100 last month.

snip
Even when it gets so cold out that all babies are born with booster
cables instead of umbillical cords, that heater does the job.

You mean not all babies get borned with booster cables?

Of course, in the heat of summer, I only have the heater running part of
the time.

Lucky you. I guess that's one of the advantages from living in subtropical
Ontario (or is it tropical BC?).

--
Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html

"Michael Burton" .
I am thinking wood stove here. I have an all electric place also. I think
I
would have planty of wood from cutoffs to keep my scrawney butt warm. :-)
Course, you may live in a much colder area than I do. I'm in Central
Texas.

If the shop is in an attached garage, solid fuel heaters are illegal. Even
after the fire is "out', there can be embers in the ash the will ignite
fumes from solvents.

The scrap I generate in a year would keep my stove going for only a few
days. Wood is nice heat, but requires a lot of attention. Keeping the shop
heated all the time means lots of trips out there.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:NGsOd.19617$f%5.11523@trndny03...


If the shop is in an attached garage, solid fuel heaters are illegal. Even
after the fire is "out', there can be embers in the ash the will ignite
fumes from solvents.

Maybe some places, but they're not illeage in New York.


--

-Mike-

"julvr" wrote in message
...
I was just reading this and the first thought that comes into my head
is 'fire hazard'! Unless you have a state of the art dust collector
and sweep the shop daily, you're going to have some sawdust kicking
around. Mix that with burning wood... hmmm... doesn't sound to
safe to me... In fact, a baseboard heater mounted at floor level
doesn't necessarily sound to safe either.


Not as much of a fire hazard as you might first think. Woodstoves are found
in garages and woodworking shops of all sorts in a lot of places.
--

-Mike-

In article ,
Unquestionably Confused wrote:

I have a fully insulated 13'x24' shop

Me too.

Bottom line: If the choice is between conventional and hydroponic, am I
courting disaster by installing conventional in a shop?


I heat mine with a 4800 watt fan-forced construction heater. Paid 69
dollars Canadian for it, and is more than enough. I wired in a wall
mounted thermostat. Clean, fast, safe heat. (They also called barn
heaters around these parts)
Oh... and I have a Workshop? air-cleaner (from Lee Valley) on a slow
speed all the time. It is sitting in the rafters and moves the heat from
the nook throughout the shop.

Even when it gets so cold out that all babies are born with booster
cables instead of umbillical cords, that heater does the job.

Of course, in the heat of summer, I only have the heater running part of
the time.

0¿0

Rob

"Unquestionably Confused" wrote in message
m...
I have a fully insulated 13'x24' shop that I'd like to install baseboard heat
in. Tired of sniffy Kerosene fumes from either the Redi-Heater (to bring it up
to temp) or the Kero-Sun heater that keeps it comfy.

Electric heat is my only practical option and I'm well aware of the cost since
my entire home is electric baseboard and I've survived 30 years of bills
so...g

Question I have is I noted at least one gentleman here, Ken Vaughn, has used a
"soft heat" hydroponic electric baseboard. Not adverse to going that route
but why hydroponic? Is is safer than conventional convection electric
baseboard?

Price is about 8 times conventional baseboard and guarantee is 5 years vs.
lifetime. I could care less about smooth, even, quiet heat. I just want heat
and no open flames.

I realize that sawdust, etc. migrating to the fins and calrod element will
likely smell up the place but won't they also with the "soft heat"?
Installation and clearances are similar for both.

Bottom line: If the choice is between conventional and hydroponic, am I
courting disaster by installing conventional in a shop?

Thanks

Bob

As you have already noted, I use sealed unit 240V electric baseboard units in my
16' by 24' shop. The units (two 1000 watt units) contains something similar to
anti-freeze, not water, but I'm not sure that is significant. I built my shop
with this system in mind, and my shop is very well insulated and sealed, plus
double pane windows, insulated doors, etc. It is also important to note that I
live in Colorado, a normally dry state with more than 300 days of sunshine per
year. We do get some pretty cold days, but nothing like the Northern tier
states, or even the Midwest. I work in my shop almost daily, and I wear a
Tee-shirt. I keep the thermostat at 60 degrees, but with two south facing
windows it is usually over 65 by mid morning. By noon I often open a window.

I can't compare what I have to convection electric baseboard heaters because I
have never used them. These sealed units produce a steady heat with no drafts
and my cost has been reasonable -- I really don't know what they cost to run,
and at this point in my life, I don't care, but they are not that expensive. My
initial cost for the two units and the thermostat was just a little over $300,
but that was 12 years ago.

--
Ken Vaughn
Visit My Workshop: http://home.earthlink.net/~kvaughn65/

Ken Vaughn wrote:

As you have already noted, I use sealed unit 240V electric baseboard units in my
16' by 24' shop. The units (two 1000 watt units) contains something similar to
anti-freeze, not water, but I'm not sure that is significant. I built my shop
with this system in mind, and my shop is very well insulated and sealed, plus
double pane windows, insulated doors, etc. It is also important to note that I
live in Colorado, a normally dry state with more than 300 days of sunshine per
year. We do get some pretty cold days, but nothing like the Northern tier
states, or even the Midwest. I work in my shop almost daily, and I wear a
Tee-shirt. I keep the thermostat at 60 degrees, but with two south facing
windows it is usually over 65 by mid morning. By noon I often open a window.

I can't compare what I have to convection electric baseboard heaters because I
have never used them. These sealed units produce a steady heat with no drafts
and my cost has been reasonable -- I really don't know what they cost to run,
and at this point in my life, I don't care, but they are not that expensive. My
initial cost for the two units and the thermostat was just a little over $300,
but that was 12 years ago.

Thanks for responding Ken and, BTW, that's one nice shop you have and
great website on which to showcase it.

I've found similar units (1000 watts each -- mfg by www.Cadetco.com)
selling for ~ $127 each at Menard's Lumber. The hydroponic sealed units
should function similarly to the standard electric resistance heat. In
yours, however, the Calrod element is sealed within the copper vessel
containing the mix of water and anti-freeze so the surface temperature,
I think, will be somewhat less than the standard unit.

My concern, again, is that despite whatever promises I make to myself to
clean up after each session of "sawdust creation" an accumulation could
form in the heater and eventually ignite with totally unacceptable
consequences.

The cost is not a problem in my situation as I'm used to electric heat
bills and I won't be running it all the time. Like you, I have the
double glazed windows which will be further upgraded (due to leakage of
the glass) to Low-E double glazing this year.

In a perfect world I should have ~ 2,600 watts of heater in that shop.
I'll likely round up to 3,000 if I go with the 1000 watt sealed units
since they are fairly short units (ones on display look to be about 54"
or so). Two of the conventional units at 1,500 watts each will cost me
less than $50.

Alfa wrote:

How I envy you guys. Tomorrow the temperature here will go to 33 deg
Celcius
....

Is that all? :) We'll get that plus another 5-10C come a few months...

How I envy you guys. Tomorrow the temperature here will go to 33 deg
Celcius


"Gerald Ross" wrote in message
...
Unquestionably Confused wrote:
I have a fully insulated 13'x24' shop that I'd like to install baseboard
heat in. Tired of sniffy Kerosene fumes from either the Redi-Heater (to
bring it up to temp) or the Kero-Sun heater that keeps it comfy.

Electric heat is my only practical option and I'm well aware of the cost
since my entire home is electric baseboard and I've survived 30 years of
bills so...g

Question I have is I noted at least one gentleman here, Ken Vaughn, has
used a "soft heat" hydroponic electric baseboard. Not adverse to going
that route but why hydroponic? Is is safer than conventional convection
electric baseboard?

Price is about 8 times conventional baseboard and guarantee is 5 years
vs. lifetime. I could care less about smooth, even, quiet heat. I just
want heat and no open flames.

I realize that sawdust, etc. migrating to the fins and calrod element
will likely smell up the place but won't they also with the "soft heat"?
Installation and clearances are similar for both.

Bottom line: If the choice is between conventional and hydroponic, am I
courting disaster by installing conventional in a shop?

Thanks

Bob

I just use a couple of those cube ceramic heaters when I need them. Most
of the time just turning off the air conditioner suffices.

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

Chaste makes waste.





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In article NGsOd.19617$f%5.11523@trndny03, Edwin Pawlowski
wrote:

If the shop is in an attached garage, solid fuel heaters are illegal.

You might want to rethink that, in light of the global nature of this
newsgroup.

Even within the US, you can't make such a blanket statement. Codes vary
wildly.

Kevin

In article ,
Kevin Craig wrote:
In article NGsOd.19617$f%5.11523@trndny03, Edwin Pawlowski
wrote:

If the shop is in an attached garage, solid fuel heaters are illegal.

You might want to rethink that, in light of the global nature of this
newsgroup.

Even within the US, you can't make such a blanket statement. Codes vary
wildly.

After checking the building code, check with your homeowner's insurance
carrier. *They* won't say 'no' -- they'll say "HELL NO!!!!"

"Kevin Craig" wrote in message
...
In article NGsOd.19617$f%5.11523@trndny03, Edwin Pawlowski
wrote:

If the shop is in an attached garage, solid fuel heaters are illegal.

You might want to rethink that, in light of the global nature of this
newsgroup.

Even within the US, you can't make such a blanket statement. Codes vary
wildly.

Kevin

It was a National code, NFPA. I can't find the numbers right now but our
local shopper paper used to print it right in the "for Sale" column for
stoves and heater. In any case, it is a dumb idea no matter where you live.

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Kevin Craig wrote:
In article NGsOd.19617$f%5.11523@trndny03, Edwin Pawlowski
wrote:

If the shop is in an attached garage, solid fuel heaters are illegal.

You might want to rethink that, in light of the global nature of this
newsgroup.

Even within the US, you can't make such a blanket statement. Codes vary
wildly.

After checking the building code, check with your homeowner's insurance
carrier. *They* won't say 'no' -- they'll say "HELL NO!!!!"



Both my insurance company and my local municipality were satisfied by a
visit from the fire marshal and his sign off on our stove. As well, for
years I was a volunteer fireman and for part of that time a chief. During
that time I attend more than a few house and garage fires. I saw many -
many wood stoves in garages. Never once saw an insurance claim denied
because of a chimney fire in a garage.
--

-Mike-

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...


It was a National code, NFPA. I can't find the numbers right now but our
local shopper paper used to print it right in the "for Sale" column for
stoves and heater. In any case, it is a dumb idea no matter where you
live.



Can't speak to what NFPA might say, because I don't have a copy of it. As
to whether it's a dumb idea or not, that's somewhat a matter of opinion. I
don't know what it's like around you, but around here it is very common to
find wood stoves in attached garages, in wood shops (both pro and home),
etc. As I replied to Robert, I have attended a good number of chimney fires
(the most common form of wood stove related fires) in the years when I was
an active fireman and never saw an insurance claim denied because of a
woodstove in an attached garage. Never saw a citation issued for an
"illegal" woodstove.
--

-Mike-

In article ,
"Alfa" wrote:

How I envy you guys. Tomorrow the temperature here will go to 33 deg
Celcius

You suck!

Enough already!

You are a mean person!

I have to pay large for a week of thawing out in Punta Cana DR for the
missus ("aren't you bringing the laptop so you can keep up on the Wreck,
hunnyieee?") and I..... and then I have to raise this stupid little flag
so the topless girl can bring me another drink.....

I digress..

Enjoy your thirty-fricking-three-frickin degrees!

0¿0

Rob

In article ,
"Luigi Zanasi" wrote:



Me too, but only paid $20.00 for mine. But thenn, my electric bill went up
by $100 last month.

If you don't mind my asking...what do you pay for a KW/hr there?

This shop is very well insulated AND I strung my Lektrikkul cables via a
few palm trees to the house. Maybe another 50 bucks? If that?


Lucky you. I guess that's one of the advantages from living in subtropical
Ontario (or is it tropical BC?).

I hate this crap, Luigi. Snow is snow. But this slush is breaking me
down.
Sarniapolis, across the river from Port Huron MI

Rome, Italy, 41°54'N
Sarnia, Ontario 42°59'N
You're at 60° N....Need I say more?
You going to be getting daylight soon, huh?

0¿0

Rob

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message


Can't speak to what NFPA might say, because I don't have a copy of it. As
to whether it's a dumb idea or not, that's somewhat a matter of opinion.
I
don't know what it's like around you, but around here it is very common to
find wood stoves in attached garages, in wood shops (both pro and home),
etc.

The reason for not using them in an attached garage is because of potential
fumes from a car leaking gas, etc. Detached is not a problme. Woodshops are
not a problem, but care with solvents must be exercise, of course.


Never saw a citation issued for an
"illegal" woodstove.
--

That does not mean it never happened.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:46:06 -0500, Robatoy wrote:

If you don't mind my asking...what do you pay for a KW/hr there?

It's really expensive at 10.5 cents per kWh. (Watch the Merkins groan)

I hate this crap, Luigi. Snow is snow. But this slush is breaking me
down.

Heh, heh! No slush here. But we did have a record snowfall in January & it
keeps going. I've neve seen so much snow since I've been here. I'm getting
tired of shoveling.

Sarniapolis, across the river from Port Huron MI

That is the subtropical part of Ontario. Don't you have southern trees
like pin oaks, honey locusts, sassafras, growing in your part of the
world.

Rome, Italy, 41°54'N
Sarnia, Ontario 42°59'N
You're at 60° N....Need I say more?

Just a little more than that: 46' more, which is about 1/2 to 1 degree
north of Oslo, Stockholm & Helsinki.

You going to be getting daylight soon, huh?

Ackshally, we get 4 hours of daylight or so in the depth of winter. But
it's mostly sunny! Hardly any of the greay **** you probably get.
Environment Canada even classifies Whitehorse among the cities in Canada
with the most comfortable climate.

http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/weather/winners/comfy-e.html

--
Luigi
Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html

on 2/14/2005 11:10 AM David said the following:

I heat mine with a 4800 watt fan-forced construction heater. Paid 69
dollars Canadian for it, and is more than enough. I wired in a wall
mounted thermostat. Clean, fast, safe heat. (They also called barn
heaters around these parts)


Rob I use one of those AND a baseboard unit.
I keep the temp low (45-50) when I'm not in the shop and the 4800 watts can heat
the space in a hurry. I use the baseboard unit to maintain the temp.
The baseboard is just to slow when you want heat in a hurry.

I have a 10 foot ceiling so installed a fan to push the heat down as well.

Thanks to all who provided suggestions. After a bit of research I've
opted for a unit specifically made for shop/garage use. The Dayton G73
heater is a 240/220V electric 5000w unit. It "seems" ideal for my needs.

The description claims four heat levels (but I suspect that may be two
levels at either 240v or 220vg) Regardless, that capability plus a
built-in thermostat with a range of 25-85 degrees should do the trick as
the wattage is approximately 40% greater what I should need for that shop.

Nice too that it has a delayed fan setting so that once the element is
turned off the fan continues until it cools down and is starting to blow
cool air.

Unit should be delivered in the next couple days. I spent yesterday
with hopefully my second to last day with the Kero-Sun unit installing
the 30a circuit that it needs.

I'll let you all know what I think of it once I get it installed.

In article ,
"Luigi Zanasi" wrote:

[after some selective snipperization, we eded up with:]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:46:06 -0500, Robatoy wrote:

If you don't mind my asking...what do you pay for a KW/hr there?

It's really expensive at 10.5 cents per kWh. (Watch the Merkins groan)


Hey, that's pretty good, eh? They want to do a variable rate thing here
in Ontario. The first xxx KWh for cheap, then it goes up as usage goes
up. I have no idea where the numbers are going to land.
I know I'm screwed. This monitor alone will take me over whatever
threshold they set.



Ackshally, we get 4 hours of daylight or so in the depth of winter. But
it's mostly sunny! Hardly any of the greay **** you probably get.
Environment Canada even classifies Whitehorse among the cities in Canada
with the most comfortable climate.

http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/weather/winners/comfy-e.html


That surprised the **** outta me. Who'da thunk it?

0.1 degree C....snow in the morning, rain in the afternoon, ohhh gooody.

My neighbour gets more snow than I do.
..
..
..
..
His lot is bigger.

In article ,
David wrote:

Rob I use one of those AND a baseboard unit.
I keep the temp low (45-50) when I'm not in the shop and the 4800 watts can
heat
the space in a hurry. I use the baseboard unit to maintain the temp.
The baseboard is just to slow when you want heat in a hurry.

I have a 10 foot ceiling so installed a fan to push the heat down as well.


You know what? That just may be the answer I have been looking for.
I posted, some time back a request for an automatic selector switch so
that my compressor wouldn't start if my heater was running. But a 1500
watt baseboard heater won't give me any grief. I have enough for that
AND the compressor. And no fan....
And as long as I set the thermostats in such a way that the 4800 watt
unit doesn't come on, except in the morning...

There it was... hiding in plain sight...

Thanks, David!


no wonder I keep coming back here...

0¿0

Rob