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  #41   Report Post  
DJ Delorie
 
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Lew Hodgett writes:
It's a neutral.


"Neutral" can be a very confusing term.


If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician.

Rather than neutral, think of it as an "above ground return".


Using the word "ground" to describe the center tap of a transformer is
misleading. It is the neutral tap of a multi-tap transformer. It is
grounded at some point, but it is not ground, nor is it a "return".
  #42   Report Post  
Lew Hodgett
 
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DJ Delorie wrote:

If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician.


Could probably find one of my students.

Using the word "ground" to describe the center tap of a transformer is
misleading. It is the neutral tap of a multi-tap transformer. It is
grounded at some point, but it is not ground, nor is it a "return".


Go back and reread the post. After that go back and enroll again in
EE101, the power option.

Lew
  #43   Report Post  
Roger Shoaf
 
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"Dave" wrote in message
news:eRTDd.17273$8l.12748@pd7tw1no...
A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system should run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30 amps of
current. In the owner's manual they will say that they want a 20 amp
circuit, not a 30 amp circuit. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system
to internally trip with excess current. But if you blow the motor and

Grizz
find out that 30 amps were running through the wires, they might find

cause
to blame you for some of that problem. Changing the breaker is a

one-minute
job. Cheap insurance.

Dave


I think you are thinking that the circuit breaker protects the item powered
by the circuit. This is not the case. The breaker or fuse protects the
wire from being overloaded, not the device. Quite common to plug a 60 watt
lamp into a 20 amp circuit. If the lamp developed a short to ground it
would hit 20 amps in a big hurry.

On a saw, if you were trying to cut through some nasty gnarly sappy wood
with a dull blade mounted backwards the thermal cutout would pop to protect
the windings on the motor long before it would pop the breaker.

--

Roger Shoaf

About the time I had mastered getting the toothpaste back in the tube, then
they come up with this striped stuff.


  #44   Report Post  
DJ Delorie
 
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Lew Hodgett writes:
DJ Delorie wrote:
If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician.


Could probably find one of my students.


Or the guys who wired my house :-P

After that go back and enroll again in EE101, the power option.


Sorry, already have an EE degree. I even know how to make
transformers from scratch.
  #45   Report Post  
neal.don
 
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just remember watts / volts = amps so a 600 watts runing 240 volts = 2.5
amps and so on. you dont need a neutral but I would run a case ground.
"LRod" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:46:07 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:


"LRod" wrote in message
. ..

What I'm trying to say (and apparently unsuccesfully) is that
*electrically* there is no neutral or need for a neutral in a 240V
circuit in North America. All that's needed for a 240V load to work is
the two hots. Period.


I am not disagreeing with that statement, "There is no need for a Neutral
in a 240V circuit in N America."
But some what recently there is that 4th wire being used. My house does
not
have the 4th but the newer ones do. Previousely you indicated that there
was NO Neutral in a 240 circuit. I was just trying to clarifiy what the
4th
wire was exactly.


It's a neutral. That doesn't contradict my original statement given in
my previous post. It performs a function that most closely resembles a
multiwire circuit.

The best way to think of all of this is to not think of "neutral" and
"240V" in the same breath (I think I may have mixed a metaphor there).

"Neutral" only has meaning at 120V. If there is a neutral wire in a
240V circuit it's because there is some 120V load in the appliance
that's being powered. NEC no longer permits the ground wire to perform
that function (and rightly so) in new construction. That's why you see
4 wire "240V" circuits.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net





  #46   Report Post  
loutent
 
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I'd just like to thank everyone again. The saw now
has power.

I left the 30 amp breaker. Bought a single outlet
rated 20 amps/240 v and a matching plug. It
is dedicated to the saw (nothing else can/will be
plugged into it).

It's a bitch working with that 10 g wire though.

The 1023 SL is just humming right along! I haven't
put a blade in it yet - still fiddling with the wings &
fence. I want to try to get everything as perfect as I can
from the get-go.


Lou
  #47   Report Post  
LRod
 
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:06:32 GMT, "neal.don"
wrote:

just remember watts / volts = amps so a 600 watts runing 240 volts = 2.5
amps and so on. you dont need a neutral but I would run a case ground.


You also should not post in electrical threads. The amount of current
draw in a circuit has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether a circuit
"needs" a neurtral or not.

Neutrals are a part of a 120V circuit. They are not an electrically
necessary part of a 240V circuit.

A "case ground", as you and no one else would put it, has been a
requirement for a long time, but as a safety item; it is not
electrically necessary.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
  #48   Report Post  
Roy Smith
 
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In article , DJ Delorie
wrote:

Lew Hodgett writes:
DJ Delorie wrote:
If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician.


Could probably find one of my students.


Or the guys who wired my house :-P

After that go back and enroll again in EE101, the power option.


Sorry, already have an EE degree. I even know how to make
transformers from scratch.


I always thought you made transformers from copper and iron :-)
  #49   Report Post  
LRod
 
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On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:59:41 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

In article , DJ Delorie
wrote:

Lew Hodgett writes:
DJ Delorie wrote:
If you're confused by the term "neutral", hire an electrician.

Could probably find one of my students.


Or the guys who wired my house :-P

After that go back and enroll again in EE101, the power option.


Sorry, already have an EE degree. I even know how to make
transformers from scratch.


I always thought you made transformers from copper and iron :-)


You buy enough copper you'll need plenty of scratch.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net
  #50   Report Post  
Lawrence Wasserman
 
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Man, if the OP thinks he had confilicting advice last time, what is he
going to think now?


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland




  #51   Report Post  
Dave
 
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A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with
excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you
started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow
the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires,
they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a
one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to
the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you
wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
Cheap insurance.

Dave

"loutent" wrote in message
...
I'd just like to thank everyone again. The saw now
has power.

I left the 30 amp breaker. Bought a single outlet
rated 20 amps/240 v and a matching plug. It
is dedicated to the saw (nothing else can/will be
plugged into it).

It's a bitch working with that 10 g wire though.

The 1023 SL is just humming right along! I haven't
put a blade in it yet - still fiddling with the wings &
fence. I want to try to get everything as perfect as I can
from the get-go.


Lou



  #52   Report Post  
Doug Winterburn
 
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 +0000, Dave wrote:

A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip
with excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you
started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you
blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the
wires, they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker
is a one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's
manual to the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp
later, if you wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
Cheap insurance.

Dave


Oh, Dave - A BIG Thank You!

After reading your post and realizing the risks I've been taking with all
those 60 watt lamps and 1/10th watt alarm clocks plugged into those
humongous 15 and 20 amp circuits, I've rushed breathessly around the house
and unplugged them all! Gawd only knows the risks we all take on a
regular basis by plugging under-utilizing dangerous equipment into over
rated outlets!!!

Thanks again for saving me from disaster with my insurance company!

In eternal debt to you,

- Doug

--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)

  #53   Report Post  
Dave
 
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"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 +0000, Dave wrote:

A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree
in
principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The
internal
wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip
with excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that
you
started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you
blow the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the
wires, they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker
is a one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's
manual to the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp
later, if you wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
Cheap insurance.

Dave


Oh, Dave - A BIG Thank You!

After reading your post and realizing the risks I've been taking with all
those 60 watt lamps and 1/10th watt alarm clocks plugged into those
humongous 15 and 20 amp circuits, I've rushed breathessly around the house
and unplugged them all! Gawd only knows the risks we all take on a
regular basis by plugging under-utilizing dangerous equipment into over
rated outlets!!!

Thanks again for saving me from disaster with my insurance company!

In eternal debt to you,

- Doug


Dear Doug,

Thankyou for your facetious comment, which I anticipated from someone.
Those appliances are all rated to be plugged into 15/20 amp 110v AC outlets.
So of course the manufacturers design those appliances with that point in
mind, and with appropriate safeguards to protect consumers based on that
maximum amperage the appliance could be subject to. However this table saw
is designed to be plugged into a 20 amp circuit. Sure, I think it will work
fine on a 30 amp circuit, provided there is no short circuit or higher than
anticipated draw. I do wonder why Grizz didn't just say that it will work
fine with 30 or even 50 amp breakers. But it didn't, maybe for reasons of
liability.... Therefore this analogy that you are making is not an accurate
comparison.

Dave


  #54   Report Post  
Doug Winterburn
 
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 04:42:58 +0000, Dave wrote:



Oh, Dave - A BIG Thank You!

After reading your post and realizing the risks I've been taking with
all those 60 watt lamps and 1/10th watt alarm clocks plugged into those
humongous 15 and 20 amp circuits, I've rushed breathessly around the
house and unplugged them all! Gawd only knows the risks we all take on
a regular basis by plugging under-utilizing dangerous equipment into
over rated outlets!!!

Thanks again for saving me from disaster with my insurance company!

In eternal debt to you,

- Doug


Dear Doug,

Thankyou for your facetious comment, which I anticipated from someone.
Those appliances are all rated to be plugged into 15/20 amp 110v AC
outlets. So of course the manufacturers design those appliances with that
point in mind, and with appropriate safeguards to protect consumers based
on that maximum amperage the appliance could be subject to. However this
table saw is designed to be plugged into a 20 amp circuit. Sure, I think
it will work fine on a 30 amp circuit, provided there is no short circuit
or higher than anticipated draw. I do wonder why Grizz didn't just say
that it will work fine with 30 or even 50 amp breakers. But it didn't,
maybe for reasons of liability.... Therefore this analogy that you are
making is not an accurate comparison.



Dear Dave,

Breakers are designed to protect the wiring to the load, not the load.
All modern motors (load) have thermal breakers integrated to protect the
motor.

Your friend,

- Doug

--

To escape criticism--do nothing, say nothing, be nothing." (Elbert Hubbard)

  #55   Report Post  
LRod
 
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On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:

A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with
excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you
started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow
the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires,
they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a
one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to
the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you
wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
Cheap insurance.


As I said befo

Please. You should refrain from offering electrical advice. I'm sorry
if that hurts your feelings, but your reply does not reflect the
slightest bit of reality with regard to electrical theory,
engineering, or legal requirements.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net


  #56   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Dave wrote:

....A bunch of stuff...

Dave, you're way off here. Breakers are sized for the ampacity of the
circuit wiring. As long as the total load on the circuit is within
the rating, it's just fine and will do it's job as designed. There's no
protection for the device itself (in this case the saw) implied by the
breaker, simply the protection from overcurrent so that the household
wiring does not overheat.
  #57   Report Post  
Kevin Matthews
 
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The Grizzly saw hookup originally asked about is a 3 wire hookup to
the electrical switch. Hot-Hot-Neutral. If the wire has a white
jacket on it, it is a neutral. Ground wires are bare.

Beyond that, if you open up your main service panel to your house,
there SHOULD be a little green screw run through one edge of the
NEUTRAL bar that connects to the back of the service panel, which in
turn is connected to the GROUND bar in the service panel. That said
in the main service panel there is a completed circuit between neutral
and ground in a 4 wire hookup. In sub-panels, the "green screw" is
removed and the 4 wires (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are run separately to
the main service panel. It's just a formality done so that an
electrician can tell it is a sub panel, since back at the main panel
the ground and neutral are combined...see above. This is according to
current NEC code.

So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...they connect
together back at the panel. Therefore, if it's got a white jacket,
call it neutral, if it's bare, call it a ground.

Kevin

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:36:39 +0000, LRod
wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 02:37:10 GMT, "Dave"
wrote:

A 20 amp two pole breaker is worth about 15 bucks. Although I agree in
principle that the system will run fine on the 30 amp circuit, I wonder
whether your warranty would still hold if something happened. The internal
wiring and switches on their machine will not be of adequate gauge for 30
amps of current, so if a wiring fault occurs in the saw, the risks may be
higher. Sure, Grizz should have designed the system to internally trip with
excess current. Also, the resistance and design of the motor should
automatically limit the amperage of the circuit. However, suppose that you
started a fire caused by excessive current, and your house burned down.
Would Grizz be expected to pay? In the owner's manual they say that they
want a 20 amp circuit, period. I suspect they don't say 'minimum 20 amp
circuit'. So their lawyers could argue that you made a mistake. If you blow
the motor and Grizz find out that 30 amps were running through the wires,
they might find cause to contest your claim. Changing the breaker is a
one-minute job, and you can then say that you followed the owner's manual to
the letter. You can always change the breaker back to 30 amp later, if you
wired it as a 30 amp circuit.
Cheap insurance.


As I said befo

Please. You should refrain from offering electrical advice. I'm sorry
if that hurts your feelings, but your reply does not reflect the
slightest bit of reality with regard to electrical theory,
engineering, or legal requirements.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net


  #58   Report Post  
Scott Lurndal
 
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Kevin Matthews writes:
The Grizzly saw hookup originally asked about is a 3 wire hookup to
the electrical switch. Hot-Hot-Neutral. If the wire has a white
jacket on it, it is a neutral. Ground wires are bare.

Beyond that, if you open up your main service panel to your house,
there SHOULD be a little green screw run through one edge of the
NEUTRAL bar that connects to the back of the service panel, which in
turn is connected to the GROUND bar in the service panel. That said
in the main service panel there is a completed circuit between neutral
and ground in a 4 wire hookup. In sub-panels, the "green screw" is
removed and the 4 wires (hot-hot-neutral-ground) are run separately to
the main service panel. It's just a formality done so that an


Just a formality? Like Dave, above, you should not be giving
electrical advice.

electrician can tell it is a sub panel, since back at the main panel
the ground and neutral are combined...see above. This is according to
current NEC code.


While you may have actually looked at the code, you _clearly_
didn't understand it.


So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...they connect
together back at the panel. Therefore, if it's got a white jacket,
call it neutral, if it's bare, call it a ground.


You couldn't be more wrong.

scott

  #59   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Scott Lurndal wrote:

....
So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...


The word you were looking for is moot. It's too bad you chose to not be
mute.
  #60   Report Post  
Patriarch
 
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Doesn't every electrical question here on the wReck have pretty much the
same effect as a troll? ;-)

Patriarch


  #61   Report Post  
Scott Lurndal
 
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Duane Bozarth writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote:

...
So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...


The word you were looking for is moot. It's too bad you chose to not be
mute.


Duane,

Please be more careful with your attributions. I did
not write the statement you have attributed to me.

scott
  #62   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
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Scott Lurndal wrote:

Duane Bozarth writes:
Scott Lurndal wrote:

...
So, the whole neutral or ground argument is mute...


The word you were looking for is moot. It's too bad you chose to not be
mute.


Duane,

Please be more careful with your attributions. I did
not write the statement you have attributed to me.

scott


Sorry, you're correct Scott, my bad...inadvertent, for sure.
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