DIYbanter - Face Frame Alignment

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"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
2. Does it seem that a flush fit would be harder and require greater
expertise than having a lip?

The very reason I commented with the comment I commented
with, the added cost of labor to sand the two surfaces flush
with each other and not sand through the veneer on the
cabinet bottom, i.e., experienced workman.

HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler. Certainly easier than trying to
get a consistent lip without another reference.

"George" george@least wrote in message
...
"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...

HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your
FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler. Certainly easier than trying to
get a consistent lip without another reference.

Actually, and I have done this to get a consistent lip, using the same
method you mentioned to make the FF flush, cut a 1" rabbet across the end of
the plywood that you clamp to the inside base and let the depth of the
rabbet index your consistent lip.

"Mike G" wrote in message
ews.com...

With all the face frame joints biscuited and glued in what way do you
think they are not rigid?

Well, I think I misunderstood. Somewhere I understood that some of the
joints would not be glued. Apparently I was incorrectly visualizing what
you had written.

George wrote:
HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler.

Absolutely, until you go out and find minimum wage labor to
do it.

UA100

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
George wrote:
HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your
FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler.

Absolutely, until you go out and find minimum wage labor to
do it.

After having a subcontractor fail three separate times to put kitchen
cabinet blocking in a stud wall in the right place, that is a good point.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:11:52 -0600, "Swingman" wrote:

"igor" wrote in message

Do you mean this literally?

You betcha.

My first step is usually to build all the face frames, for both upper and
lower cabinets, _before_ I ever buy any sheet goods.

Could you prvode more details? For exampl,e do
you lay the assembled FF on the floor/table and then attach each cabinet
piece, one at a time, to the FF? W/ biscuits? -- Igor

Dado/grooves that accept the case parts are have been previously cut in the
FF rails and stiles and then the FF assembled (sometimes days or weeks
before the next step).

Dado/grooves that accept the floor, top and back panel have been precut into
the cabinet sides

Previously made FF is laid on the assembly table, face down. The cabinet
sides, floor and top are glued into the grooves pre-cut in the FF and
cabinet sides.

Note: All parts (FF and case parts) are batch cut beforehand, as batch
cutting is the best way to insure uniformity, accuracy, and therefore,
"square". (I try to NEVER move a fence until all the parts with the same
measurement have been cut.)

Assembling as above, using the known and carefully "square" built face frame
as a template, insures a square cabinet follows.

"Square" means BIG, HUGE benefits/savings in time and money during
installation, and the making and fitting of doors, drawers and door fronts.

This works well for me... as previously noted, it certainly is not the only,
or even the "right", way to do it ... ymmv applies.

Your system makes sense, and most importantly, as you said, it works for
you. What I find peculiar (not quite the right word here, but it will have
to do) is that under your system in which the FF sets the "framework", if a
side/top/bottom panel of a cabinet is not quite right on the money in size,
you then have to adjust it. For those who build the carcass first and then
the FF (by whatever method), if the FF is off in its size it is easier to
adjust it than it is to adjust a panel as under your method. I.e., it is
easier to take 1/32 off a FF component than it is to take 1/32 off a
plywood panel -- at least for some of us.

Of course, if one is very good at measuring, marking, and cutting panels to
size, no adjustments are necessary. In some ways, I can see aspiring to
your system. I just don't see my ability -- in the near-term, if ever --
to meet its inherent standards. In any event, hats off to you for making
it work. -- Igor.

On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:20:45 -0500, Mike G wrote:

In article ,
says...
What connects the rails to the stiles? Glue? Glue and biscuits? It
_seems_ that in your process there is no force applied to the stiles into
the rails. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a problem. TIA. --
Igor

I'll have to look but I guess I didn't make it clear. After the dry
fitting and cutting, biscuit slots are cut in the joints of the face
frame. IE rails to stile. Glue is applied too both the back of the
rails/stiles, carcass, and, of course, the biscuits and joints where the
pieces join.

Thanks. That makes sense.

The with the rails in place the second stile is dry fitted to them for
the clamping purposes of closing the rail/first stile joint.

About the clamping, do you clamp the FF parts sideways to each other AND to
the carcass (at the same time)? Do you use edge clamps?

While I appreciate the need for/benefits of squaring (and the potential
contribution of the FF) as others have mentioned, it _seems_ to me that
your system is a bit more forgiving and adjustable -- versus Swingman's
system, which seems completely logical but not at all forgiving -- for
those of us who may need forgiveness from the woodworking gods. -- Igor

"igor" wrote in message

you. What I find peculiar (not quite the right word here, but it will
have
to do) is that under your system in which the FF sets the "framework", if
a
side/top/bottom panel of a cabinet is not quite right on the money in
size,
you then have to adjust it.

Once again, two words, important concept: "Batch cut"

Granted, this is assuming that you have the tools (table saw in particular)
to do batch cutting.

For those who build the carcass first and then
the FF (by whatever method), if the FF is off in its size it is easier to
adjust it than it is to adjust a panel as under your method. I.e., it is
easier to take 1/32 off a FF component than it is to take 1/32 off a
plywood panel -- at least for some of us.

Batch cutting your parts almost always insures this won't happen (nothing is
"always" in wooddorking).

IOW, I normally don't care if a part that is "supposed" to be 12" is
acutally 11 63/64" instead, as long as ALL the other supposedly 12" parts
are 11 63/64" also.

AAMOF, I don't always use a tape measure to make the parts. I often use a
story stick I made on site, so I have no idea of the precise dimension in
units of whatever.

Of course, if one is very good at measuring, marking, and cutting panels
to
size, no adjustments are necessary. In some ways, I can see aspiring to
your system. I just don't see my ability -- in the near-term, if ever --
to meet its inherent standards. In any event, hats off to you for making
it work.

Actually, it _is_ an easier method by far for the unskilled than any other
.... how do you think I picked up on it? ;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...
George wrote:
HOW? You clamp a piece of ply to the base on the inside, then snug your
FF
up against it. Nothing could be simpler.

Absolutely, until you go out and find minimum wage labor to
do it.

Sounds like something they taught us in NCO school (also Officer school)
would apply. You can delegate authority, but never responsibility.

Contractor gets minimum wage?

George wrote:
Contractor gets minimum wage?

In some parts of this country you wouldn't believe what
passes. What I was referring to was factory help, as in
factories where cabinets are made for places like Home
Depot.

And you wonder why their prices are soooooooo low?

UA100