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  #1   Report Post  
Mike H.
 
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Default Hand Plane Comparison: Stanley vs. Veritas

I'm wanting to purchase my first real hand plane (smooth plane), but I don't
have the $ for a Lie-Neilson (the Cadillac?). Therefore, I was going to get
a Veritas. After reading reviews and shopping online (and according to the
2005 Tool Guide from Taunton), the Veritas planes appear to be the best
value for the money.

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional wood
workers' "favorite hand tool" selections. So I was wondering if anyone out
there might have first hand experience in providing a side-by-side
comparison of the Stanley vs. Veritas hand planes (in particular smooth
planes). Amazon had a nasty review for the #4 Stanley, but the fellow
didn't say why it was such a horrible hand plane.

So what's the difference? Please help.
TIA.

-Mike


  #2   Report Post  
Patriarch
 
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"Mike H." wrote in
:

So what's the difference? Please help.


The difference is that the Stanleys in most woodworkers' shops were made in
an era when Stanley cared about handplanes more than garage door openers.

The designs are strong, and have been around since your great grandfather
was a boy, or longer. They are, in fact, the same designs from which the
Lie Nielsen and to some extent, the Veritas, planes are derived.

Here's the difference: The Veritas from Lee Valley works, right out of the
box, requiring only that you clean off the preseratives and give the blade
a light honing. A Stanley, or Record, or Anant, or Groz/Rockler, is going
to require that you spend more time with it. Within the last 6 months or
so, David Charlesworth did an excellent article, I think in Fine
Woodworking, on tuning up a modern plane. With those efforts, he, and
pretty much everyone else, gets the modern plane up to acceptable levels.

If you don't want to fiddle (fettle), then buy the Veritas, and go to work.
I particularly like the LV Low Angle smoother (watch the wrap)
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,48944
&ccurrency=2&SID=
The bevel up configuration has some real advantages.


Now, if you want drop dead gorgeous, all your friends will drool, then
order youself up one of these babies:
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/wooden.htm
And they work exceedingly well, too. But maybe not for your first one.

Welcome to the quiet side!

Patriarch

  #3   Report Post  
AAvK
 
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I'm wanting to purchase my first real hand plane (smooth plane), but I don't
have the $ for a Lie-Neilson (the Cadillac?). Therefore, I was going to get
a Veritas. After reading reviews and shopping online (and according to the
2005 Tool Guide from Taunton), the Veritas planes appear to be the best
value for the money.

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional wood
workers' "favorite hand tool" selections. So I was wondering if anyone out
there might have first hand experience in providing a side-by-side
comparison of the Stanley vs. Veritas hand planes (in particular smooth
planes). Amazon had a nasty review for the #4 Stanley, but the fellow
didn't say why it was such a horrible hand plane.

So what's the difference? Please help.
TIA.

-Mike


Veritas has superior carbon steel blades and wood knobs and totes, bodies
made of a ductile iron that will not crack, and they are ready to use out of
the box.
Stanley's blades are a very "basic" quality of thin carbon steel that will
need sharpening more often and wear down faster. They have plastic totes
and knobs, bodies made of basic iron that will* crack upon landing hard
enough. The Stanley body castings are not* machined prescision, so the
sole and sides must be tuned_to_square before it is accurate enough for
use, THIS is a LOT of hard work. Tuning being another lesson. A new
Stanley can be made to work beautifully after tuning, as well as any plane,
new wood totes and knobs and better blades can be added but it isn't
supremely cost effective considering the work of tuning. Even any new
blade must be tuned, and you must be set-up for that. Veritas are highly
praised for their quality of manufacture and usability, right out of the box.
I don't have one yet ;-( so, Mr Lee, I want a new L-A-B-P for this promo...?

Alex


  #4   Report Post  
Big Rob
 
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Buy a vintage stanley plane on ebay. If you're just looking for a
basic model you could probably get a Stanley #4 or #5 for less than
$10. You might have to buy a new blade though. That's another $20-30.
Get one from Ron Hock. The old planes are far superior to anything
Stanley or Veritas make today.

Or better yet buy a wooden plane from Knight Toolworks
(knight-toolworks.com) or Gordon (hntgordon.com).

Or even better still, make your own wooden plane. I have several home
made planes that work beautifully.


Mike H. wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase my first real hand plane (smooth plane), but

I don't
have the $ for a Lie-Neilson (the Cadillac?). Therefore, I was going

to get
a Veritas. After reading reviews and shopping online (and according

to the
2005 Tool Guide from Taunton), the Veritas planes appear to be the

best
value for the money.

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the

price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional

wood
workers' "favorite hand tool" selections. So I was wondering if

anyone out
there might have first hand experience in providing a side-by-side
comparison of the Stanley vs. Veritas hand planes (in particular

smooth
planes). Amazon had a nasty review for the #4 Stanley, but the

fellow
didn't say why it was such a horrible hand plane.

So what's the difference? Please help.
TIA.

-Mike


  #5   Report Post  
Alan Bierbaum
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Comments interspersed below:
I use old planes and new planes; my "go to" plane is the Veritas low angle
smoother ( I have, and use, the HA blade also).

--
Alan Bierbaum

Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Current project: http://home.comcast.net/~cabierbaum/

"Big Rob" wrote in message
ups.com...
Buy a vintage stanley plane on ebay. If you're just looking for a
basic model you could probably get a Stanley #4 or #5 for less than
$10.


For $10 on Ebay you will get (normally) junk that takes hours of work to
make right.

You might have to buy a new blade though. That's another $20-30.
Get one from Ron Hock.


You will probably need a new blade and Hock blades are good.

The old planes are far superior to anything
Stanley or Veritas make today.


Old Stanley are generally better than new Stanley; however, many of us do
not believe that they are better than Veritas.


Or better yet buy a wooden plane from Knight Toolworks
(knight-toolworks.com) or Gordon (hntgordon.com).

Or even better still, make your own wooden plane. I have several home
made planes that work beautifully.


Mike H. wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase my first real hand plane (smooth plane), but

I don't
have the $ for a Lie-Neilson (the Cadillac?). Therefore, I was going

to get
a Veritas. After reading reviews and shopping online (and according

to the
2005 Tool Guide from Taunton), the Veritas planes appear to be the

best
value for the money.

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the

price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional

wood
workers' "favorite hand tool" selections. So I was wondering if

anyone out
there might have first hand experience in providing a side-by-side
comparison of the Stanley vs. Veritas hand planes (in particular

smooth
planes). Amazon had a nasty review for the #4 Stanley, but the

fellow
didn't say why it was such a horrible hand plane.

So what's the difference? Please help.
TIA.

-Mike






  #6   Report Post  
Tyke
 
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If you want to see reviews, start looking in this UK forum.

http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/

If you dig around you will find a section which has reviews of planes. I
cannot find the link to this section.

One of the reviewers owns L-N as well as Veritas. I am not sure about
Stanley.

The typical response about a new Stanley vs a Veritas appears to be :
a) The Veritas are flat and true out of the box. A Stanley needs to be
flattened - if you desire your plane soles to be flat. Some folks do not
care. I bought a new Record #5 about 2 years ago and had to spend the time
to get its sole flat.
b) Quality of the blade. A Stanley has a normal steel blade, which will
hone to a great edge, but will not keep the edge for long. The Veritas
blade is a harder alloy which will keep its edge much longer.

I have a hand-me-down Stanley 9-1/2 and bought an old Stanley #3 from a
friend. Both of these were not flat. The #3 was used by a carpenter for
all his life and so even had significant wear scratches on the sole.

I have spent a lot of time tuning these tools. The 9-1/2 is now flat and
has a recently sharpened, but original blade. I have considered getting a
upgraded blade, but the ones I have seen have a 5/8 slot, whereas my plane
being US built has 7/16 slot. The 9-1/2 is now working acceptable well for
the light duty it is used for.

The #3 is another story. I do not have the sole as flat as desired perhaps
due to the amount of wear over the years. I will have to spend another hour
or two to get this to my desire.

The blade has been sharpened, but even after all my work, the Record cuts
much better than the #3, and most people claim the Record blades are not
very good.

Neither the Record or the #3 work as well as a recent Veritas purchase of
the Low Angle Block Plane. Even without any honing the Veritas cut with
ease.

The workmanship on the Veritas is very good. I prefer the ductile iron body
over cast iron, just in case this is ever nudged off the bench onto my
concrete floor.

Some people feel the Stanleys of 1950's or before are superior to present
day. This may be the case, but I expect a Veritas to hold its own compared
to any equivalent Stanley.

Dave Paine.



"Mike H." wrote in message
...
I'm wanting to purchase my first real hand plane (smooth plane), but I

don't
have the $ for a Lie-Neilson (the Cadillac?). Therefore, I was going to

get
a Veritas. After reading reviews and shopping online (and according to

the
2005 Tool Guide from Taunton), the Veritas planes appear to be the best
value for the money.

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional wood
workers' "favorite hand tool" selections. So I was wondering if anyone

out
there might have first hand experience in providing a side-by-side
comparison of the Stanley vs. Veritas hand planes (in particular smooth
planes). Amazon had a nasty review for the #4 Stanley, but the fellow
didn't say why it was such a horrible hand plane.

So what's the difference? Please help.
TIA.

-Mike




  #7   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A vintage stanley for $10????? When is the last time you shopped on
ebay? Nothing has been going for less than $50 for months, as I've
watched it. I must be missing something.

Bob

  #8   Report Post  
Nate Perkins
 
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Default

"Mike H." wrote in
:

I'm wanting to purchase my first real hand plane (smooth plane), but I
don't have the $ for a Lie-Neilson (the Cadillac?). Therefore, I was
going to get a Veritas. After reading reviews and shopping online
(and according to the 2005 Tool Guide from Taunton), the Veritas
planes appear to be the best value for the money.

....

So what's the difference? Please help.
TIA.


Pretty much all of the Veritas planes are really well made. You won't be
sorry with one.

Modern Stanley planes are really not very good. The castings are inferior,
the tolerances in the blade and adjustments are far worse than previous
Stanleys. They can be tuned to work, sure, but then again so can the Anant
planes.

If you go with a Stanley, get a vintage one off of Ebay. Some of the old
ones are very good. I have a Sweetheart Stanley #3 (ca 1920?) with a Hock
blade that is my favorite.

What plane are you thinking of getting? IMHO the most useful is a low
angle block plane, followed by a shoulder plane, a scraper plane, and a #3/
#4 smoother and a #5 jack.

Hope that helps.

  #9   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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"Mike H." wrote in message

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the price
of a Veritas.


I own three planes, all bought new. Stanley, Knight, Veritas. I will never
buy a new Stanley plane. It is OK now, but took me a few hours to get it
right.


  #10   Report Post  
AAvK
 
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Default


A vintage stanley for $10????? When is the last time you shopped on
ebay? Nothing has been going for less than $50 for months, as I've
watched it. I must be missing something.
Bob


Yep, $10 - $12 4's and 5's fly by aaaaaaallllllllllll day long. My #5 was $9.99 and it
is a beaut! My old type 19 #4 was $7.99, needs a bit of tuning on the sole and sides.

Alex




  #11   Report Post  
George
 
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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

"Mike H." wrote in message

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the

price
of a Veritas.


I own three planes, all bought new. Stanley, Knight, Veritas. I will

never
buy a new Stanley plane. It is OK now, but took me a few hours to get it
right.



Two major points which recommend the Veritas smoother are room for the hand
at the handle, and ease of throat adjustment. They will always be there on
the Veritas, as will the lateral limit adjustments. They will never be
there on the Stanley.



  #12   Report Post  
Ba r r y
 
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:13:50 -0600, "Mike H."
wrote:


But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional wood
workers' "favorite hand tool" selections. So I was wondering if anyone out
there might have first hand experience in providing a side-by-side
comparison of the Stanley vs. Veritas hand planes (in particular smooth
planes).


Sure. Some OLD Stanley's work very well. Most will need at least
some work. A Hock iron will hold an edge better than any original.
I've purchased a few Stanley's, tuned them, added good irons and chip
breakers, and ended up spending nearly what a Veritas planes costs.

Veritas planes come close to ready to go, except for a bit of
Cosmolene that needs to be cleaned off, and maybe a very quick touch
up of the edge. The bottoms are flat, the sides are square, the irons
have flat backs, etc...

Veritas planes also are designed with really nice adjusting
mechanisms, adjustable throat openings and a frog that supports the
high quality blade better than a typical Stanley. Lee Valley also has
satisfaction guarantee. I doubt they get many planes back.

Amazon had a nasty review for the #4 Stanley, but the fellow
didn't say why it was such a horrible hand plane.


Plastic knobs, sides that aren't square, a sole that isn't flat, and a
blade that won't hold an edge. What more could you want in a hand
plane? G

I don't use standard bench planes as much as some folks might, as I
use machines for grunt work. My Veritas low angle block and medium
shoulder planes are constantly in use. I have some pre-1950 Stanley
#5's and a #4 with Hock irons. I put a ton of time into them to get
them working well, but they still don't have the mechanism or
adjustable mouth of the Veritas versions.

FWIW, once you use a good shoulder plane, you'll be amazed at how much
time can be saved cutting tenons a scootch oversize and custom
trimming them during the dry fit. A swipe or two, and a perfect fit
is yours!

Trust me, a good plane is poetry in motion, a new Stanley is a
doorstop.

Barry
  #13   Report Post  
Ba r r y
 
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Default

On 29 Dec 2004 12:15:07 -0800, "Big Rob" wrote:

Buy a vintage stanley plane on ebay. If you're just looking for a
basic model you could probably get a Stanley #4 or #5 for less than
$10.


$10? G

The best I've ever done on eBay for a COMPLETE Stanley #4 or 5 is
about $40 + shipping. None of them were all that great when they
arrived, with pitting, filed mouths, cracks. etc...

After a Hock iron and shipping, I typically spent a total of $80 to
$100, and then faced HOURS of work to get a Stanley cranked up.

I wish I had your luck!

Barry
  #14   Report Post  
Ba r r y
 
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Default

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 18:14:18 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:


Two major points which recommend the Veritas smoother are room for the hand
at the handle, and ease of throat adjustment. They will always be there on
the Veritas, as will the lateral limit adjustments. They will never be
there on the Stanley.



I forgot all about those nice set screws!

Barry
  #16   Report Post  
Big Rob
 
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I don't know much about Veritas planes, so I can't comment on them.
But as far as a new Stanley versus a pre 1920 Stanley, I would go with
the vintage plane every time -- even if it takes a weekend of tuning it
up. You'll probably end up spending that much time in frustration with
a new Stanley. The only exception I can think of is Stanley's small,
low angle block plane -- I can't remember the model number off the top
of my head. It's not that bad for about $35 -- but be prepared to
spend some time flattening the bottom. I just replaced mine with a Lie
Neilson and the LN is much nicer of course.

If you've got a drill press and a band saw or table saw, I would
seriously consider making your own plane. It's really not that
difficult, although it does take some time. Check out David Fink's
(sp?) book. There's nothing like making your own tool. I've made four
of them in the past six months -- 45% and 50% smoothers, jack and
shoulder. My neighbor thinks I'm nuts. : - )



Nate Perkins wrote:


Pretty much all of the Veritas planes are really well made. You

won't be
sorry with one.

Modern Stanley planes are really not very good. The castings are

inferior,
the tolerances in the blade and adjustments are far worse than

previous
Stanleys. They can be tuned to work, sure, but then again so can the

Anant
planes.

If you go with a Stanley, get a vintage one off of Ebay. Some of the

old
ones are very good. I have a Sweetheart Stanley #3 (ca 1920?) with a

Hock
blade that is my favorite.

What plane are you thinking of getting? IMHO the most useful is a

low
angle block plane, followed by a shoulder plane, a scraper plane, and

a #3/
#4 smoother and a #5 jack.

Hope that helps.


  #17   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:13:50 -0600, "Mike H."
wrote:

I'm wanting to purchase my first real hand plane (smooth plane), but I don't
have the $ for a Lie-Neilson (the Cadillac?). Therefore, I was going to get
a Veritas. After reading reviews and shopping online (and according to the
2005 Tool Guide from Taunton), the Veritas planes appear to be the best
value for the money.

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional wood
workers' "favorite hand tool" selections. So I was wondering if anyone out
there might have first hand experience in providing a side-by-side
comparison of the Stanley vs. Veritas hand planes (in particular smooth
planes). Amazon had a nasty review for the #4 Stanley, but the fellow
didn't say why it was such a horrible hand plane.

So what's the difference? Please help.
TIA.

-Mike

It's a lot easier to make a tool look good than it is to make it
perform well. The Stanleys look good -- if you don't look too closely.
They can even be made to perform well -- but it usually takes an awful
lot of work.

I have some Stanley planes as well as a Veritas. The best way to think
of the Stanleys is as a plane kit. The parts are all there but it
takes a lot of work to turn it into the real thing. By the time you
get done flattening the sole, fooling with the frog, etc., you'll have
a lot of time into the plane. By the time you get it right you will
have learned a tremendous amount about planes as well.

If this is your first plane, I would strongly suggest spending the
money for the Veritas. It may still take some tuning, but you'll be
making shavings a lot sooner and you'll be a lot happier.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.
  #18   Report Post  
DaveR
 
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Mike:

You could also try the inexpensive wooden Planes - Taiwanese style from
Lee Valley.

They are very good and very inexpensive. They are much better than a new
cheaply made plane.

I have handled the new Lee Valley (Veritas) planes at their store - and
if you can afford them they are great value.


Mike H. wrote:
I'm wanting to purchase my first real hand plane (smooth plane), but I don't
have the $ for a Lie-Neilson (the Cadillac?). Therefore, I was going to get
a Veritas. After reading reviews and shopping online (and according to the
2005 Tool Guide from Taunton), the Veritas planes appear to be the best
value for the money.

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional wood
workers' "favorite hand tool" selections. So I was wondering if anyone out
there might have first hand experience in providing a side-by-side
comparison of the Stanley vs. Veritas hand planes (in particular smooth
planes). Amazon had a nasty review for the #4 Stanley, but the fellow
didn't say why it was such a horrible hand plane.

So what's the difference? Please help.
TIA.

-Mike


  #19   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 12:13:50 -0600, "Mike H."
calmly ranted:

I'm wanting to purchase my first real hand plane (smooth plane), but I don't
have the $ for a Lie-Neilson (the Cadillac?). Therefore, I was going to get
a Veritas. After reading reviews and shopping online (and according to the
2005 Tool Guide from Taunton), the Veritas planes appear to be the best
value for the money.


You'll find that most of us (those without several satchels of cash)
have all bought used Stanleys which are up to around 100 years old
and all of us love them to death.


But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional wood
workers' "favorite hand tool" selections. So I was wondering if anyone out
there might have first hand experience in providing a side-by-side
comparison of the Stanley vs. Veritas hand planes (in particular smooth
planes). Amazon had a nasty review for the #4 Stanley, but the fellow
didn't say why it was such a horrible hand plane.


The newer models aren't as well made as the oldies.


So what's the difference? Please help.


Shininess. LN, Veritas, and new Stanleys are all quite shiny.

Another possibility for you is to buy one of Steve Knight's
smoothers. It's a wood plane with a thickarse blade. They cost
less than Veritas, too (by a whopping $4 and s/h.) Look for them
on Ebay or at his website at www.Knight-Toolworks.com . I own a
whole bevy of his planes and like them, using the smoother a lot.

-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design

  #20   Report Post  
Cubby
 
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I went the ebay route myself only for reasons of cash on hand (or lack
thereof!). I've got pretty much No. 2 through No. 8 bench planes.
Yes, they take a bit of work to get tuned but I learned more about a
plane that way than if I had just bought one. A few hours truing the
sole, cleaning it up, and sharpening has yielded me great planes. I
highly recommend looking at Patrick's Blood and Gore (don't have the
link with me at the moment) as it'll tell you how to identify a
particular plane and makes recommendations as to what year's were best.


That being said, I always wonder when I get my LV or LN catalog....
Cheers,
cc



  #21   Report Post  
Silvan
 
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Larry Blanchard wrote:

And if you want a #8 jointer plane, used is the only choice you have.
Unless one has come out recently that I don't know about.


A year or two ago somebody was selling new #8s, I *think*. Maybe they were
#7s. I had one in my shopping cart for a long time at whatever place that
was, but never bought it. I have a "Stanley Tools Sheffield England"
fold-out sheet right in front of me, from a new #9 1/2 that was too cheap
to pass up ($10), and it only lists bench planes from the #3 up through
#7C. So you're probably right, and I'm probably dreaming.

#8s are damn hard to find used too.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
  #22   Report Post  
Silvan
 
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Mike H. wrote:

But the Stanley planes *look* descent enough, and are about half the price
of a Veritas. And I have seen photos of Stanleys in professional wood


So what's the difference? Please help.


I'd buy one of each of the Veritas if I had the cashola. They look
excellent, and everybody talks good talk about them.

What I actually have is an odd hodgepodge. Where the old and new, black and
blue lines cross is at the #4 level. I have two #4s, one new, and one
around 90 years old.

I put a lot of work into tuning up the new #4, and I did fine work with it.
After I got the old one, I put a wicked ugly curved blade in the new #4 and
turned it into a scrub.

It really is amazing. The one is new, clean, in perfect working order, and
it even has a groovy easy-adjust frog. The old one is pitted, covered with
hard brown rust wherever it doesn't have to rub on anything, and just
generally looks pretty nasty sitting side by side with its newer cousin.
When both of them were tuned to be smoothers, I kept picking up the old one
time and again. I swear it takes better shavings even though it has the
original (or an original vintage) iron with some light pitting on the back.
I tweaked the new one into making some damn whispy shavings, and I thought
I had a great plane, but then I gave that junky looking nonagenerian a
push, and I figured out why everybody says the new English Stanley stuff
sucks.

It's about as much work to tweak up an old rust bucket as a new English
one. Unless you happen to find a plane owned by somebody who was up to the
same anal retentive standards we modern dorkers are, it's probably going to
need a bit of twiddling to deliver peak performance. I have no experience
with the Veritas planes, but I believe that they're probably a better way
to go if you A) don't really care about owning tools from a bygone era, B)
want to buy something that you can get to work with in short order.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/
  #23   Report Post  
GregP
 
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On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 19:04:15 GMT, Patriarch
wrote:


Now, if you want drop dead gorgeous, all your friends will drool, then
order youself up one of these babies:
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/wooden.htm
And they work exceedingly well, too. But maybe not for your first one.



Steve has been selling them on eBay recently at a good-
sized discount.
  #24   Report Post  
Steve Knight
 
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On 29 Dec 2004 12:15:07 -0800, "Big Rob" wrote:

Buy a vintage stanley plane on ebay. If you're just looking for a
basic model you could probably get a Stanley #4 or #5 for less than
$10. You might have to buy a new blade though. That's another $20-30.
Get one from Ron Hock. The old planes are far superior to anything
Stanley or Veritas make today.

Or better yet buy a wooden plane from Knight Toolworks
(knight-toolworks.com) or Gordon (hntgordon.com).

Or even better still, make your own wooden plane. I have several home
made planes that work beautifully.


all good suggestions but for the first plane a old one may be a hard way to go
since the person has never used a plane and does not really understand how it
all works till he does. same with making one. I know I did both and it was a
pain in the rear (G) it's nice to start with a working plane so you know how a
plane should work.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
  #25   Report Post  
Steve Knight
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Another possibility for you is to buy one of Steve Knight's
smoothers. It's a wood plane with a thickarse blade. They cost
less than Veritas, too (by a whopping $4 and s/h.) Look for them
on Ebay or at his website at www.Knight-Toolworks.com . I own a
whole bevy of his planes and like them, using the smoother a lot.


my advertising money well spent (G)
hey I have been playing around with some/new planes for my first of the year
planes
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/web_...yearplanes.jpg
a couple of pocket planes one in ebony and one in zircote and some 7.5" long
finish planes in bubinga and rosewood. these have short blades so you hand fits
over the top and the finger grooves. I missed my low rider planes.
also making some 2.5" and 3" bladded jointers.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.


  #26   Report Post  
Duane Bozarth
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ba r r y wrote:
....
FWIW, once you use a good shoulder plane, you'll be amazed at how much
time can be saved cutting tenons a scootch oversize and custom
trimming them during the dry fit. A swipe or two, and a perfect fit
is yours!

....

You have any particular recommendations? I've been watching for a while
but haven't leapt as I'm not sure what is/isn't value and/or desirable
models...

I do mostly medium to larger size work...right now the driving forcie is
finishing the rebuilding of the barnd doors...they are full-size 2x6
first growth southern yellow pine w/ hand work beveled edges around a
tongue and groove base w/ an "x" on the upper half. The originals were
simply nailed together and they've lasted about 80 years so far, but a
couple have sufficient water damage that several pieces are beyond
repair for restoration...they look good from the outside still, but when
taken apart the interior is all punky and there's so much volume it's
just not practical to reconstitute them, unfortunately. I'll keep the
originals for the "museum" of collectibles I've discovered during the
restoration process...

Anyway, when re-building I'm using loose tenons in the main corners to
hold them and putting solid tenons on the replacement parts...these are
4" W x 5/8" T and 2-1/2" deep. Something to help tune these up is first
priority...I got one new one done and it was fairly slow slogging by the
chisel route to clean them up...

After that, more modest sized work would be the norm...

If I had a place to post them, I'd put a couple pictures of the old barn
and progress up (if, of course, anybody cares... )
  #27   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"AAvK" wrote in message
newsjDAd.60958$QR1.34067@fed1read04...

Veritas has superior carbon steel blades and wood knobs and totes, bodies
made of a ductile iron that will not crack, and they are ready to use out

of
the box.
Stanley's blades are a very "basic" quality of thin carbon steel that

will
need sharpening more often and wear down faster. They have plastic totes
and knobs, bodies made of basic iron that will* crack upon landing hard
enough. The Stanley body castings are not* machined prescision, so the
sole and sides must be tuned_to_square before it is accurate enough for
use, THIS is a LOT of hard work. Tuning being another lesson. A new
Stanley can be made to work beautifully after tuning, as well as any

plane,
new wood totes and knobs and better blades can be added but it isn't
supremely cost effective considering the work of tuning. Even any new
blade must be tuned, and you must be set-up for that. Veritas are highly
praised for their quality of manufacture and usability, right out of the

box.
I don't have one yet ;-( so, Mr Lee, I want a new L-A-B-P for this

promo...?


Alex is correct in his observations and to a lot of people those factors all
mean a lot. They may not to you though, and not all of them are reflective
of the usefulness of the plane. I'm still using the iron that came in my
Stanley plane and I don't consider that I have to touch it up an excessive
amount. Be assured, I have to touch it up more than if I had a better iron
in it, but it's not like I have to stroke it after every 5th pass. You'll
get reasonable use out of the stock iron. You'll get better use out of
better irons, but that does not make the standard product a bad product.

I have no problems with the machining on my Stanley body. Sure, as Alex
says, it's not precise machining, but it's imprecise in directions and areas
that do not matter to the use I put the plane to. I don't care that the
sides are not square to the base within .001 inches. That does not affect
the plane's ability to smoothly remove ribbons of wood from a hunk of rough
cut, or to true up the edge of a board. Even the most ardent plane folks
have commented that too much emphasis is placed on some pretty irrelevant
pursuits when it comes to hand planes.

Plastic totes - yeah, one of mine has them. They're ugly. I don't like the
looks of them. But then, I don't like synthetic gun stocks either. Do they
work? You bet. Would a nice wood tote be better? Nope. Prettier? Hell
yes. But the point is, there is nothing inherently wrong with a plastic
tote. Nor should one necessarily shy away from a plane because if it gets
dropped hard enough, it will damage the frame. That can be said of any
tool, and the objective is not to drop your planes on the floor. Any tool
that meets a minimum standard of resiliency is all that should be expected
of tool. The rest is in the hands of the operator. Having said that, Alex
is again correct in stating that you can buy better - it's a question of
whether you need to.

Alex has a certain interest in particular aspects of his planes and that's
half of what owning tools is all about. I too have tools that I hold that
type of interest in and have purchased when something else would have worked
just fine. But, to be fair to the Stanley plane, it does work. It's
utilitarian, and it can benefit from some upgrades (mainly the iron), but it
can be made to work extremely well pretty much right out of the box. Put
the iron down on some sandpaper and do the Scarey Sharp thing, and you'll be
surprised what a tool it really is.
--

-Mike-




  #28   Report Post  
Mark Jerde
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Duane Bozarth wrote:

If I had a place to post them, I'd put a couple pictures of the old
barn and progress up (if, of course, anybody cares... )


You can do it for free here and post the URLs. ;-)
http://tinypic.com/

-- Mark


  #29   Report Post  
Paul Kierstead
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike Marlow wrote:

Plastic totes - yeah, one of mine has them. They're ugly. I don't like the
looks of them. But then, I don't like synthetic gun stocks either. Do they
work? You bet. Would a nice wood tote be better? Nope. Prettier? Hell
yes. But the point is, there is nothing inherently wrong with a plastic
tote.


I quite agree with you on all your points but this one. I own a few
Record planes and all the ones that get used a lot had the totes
replaced because *I* have found a plastic tote truly miserable when used
for heavily. Your hands get sweatier, they are uncomfortable and feel
awful. Wood is much much more pleasant to use if you are doing a fair
bit of planing. I would agree there isn't much difference if you are
just using them for a couple of quick swipes though.

PK
  #30   Report Post  
AAvK
 
Posts: n/a
Default


A year or two ago somebody was selling new #8s, I *think*. Maybe they were
#7s. I had one in my shopping cart for a long time at whatever place that
was, but never bought it. I have a "Stanley Tools Sheffield England"
fold-out sheet right in front of me, from a new #9 1/2 that was too cheap
to pass up ($10), and it only lists bench planes from the #3 up through
#7C. So you're probably right, and I'm probably dreaming.
#8s are damn hard to find used too.


I got some serious lucky at that local junk shop, a good condition type 10 #8
(early with no frog adjuster) for $50!

Alex




  #31   Report Post  
AAvK
 
Posts: n/a
Default


my advertising money well spent (G)
hey I have been playing around with some/new planes for my first of the year
planes
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/web_...yearplanes.jpg
a couple of pocket planes one in ebony and one in zircote and some 7.5" long
finish planes in bubinga and rosewood. these have short blades so you hand fits
over the top and the finger grooves. I missed my low rider planes.
also making some 2.5" and 3" bladded jointers.


Steve, considering developing new planes I have le challenge for you... why not
12 (literally) low angle blocks, smoothers and jacks, adjustable mouths? I think
that would fill a good niche of competition for you. Another would be skew angle
shoulder type planes used for cross grain tennon work. I'll be doing that and had
to buy some old used ones on eBay.

Alex


  #32   Report Post  
Patriarch
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Duane Bozarth wrote in news:41D4160E.70777853
@swko.dot.net:

Ba r r y wrote:
...
FWIW, once you use a good shoulder plane, you'll be amazed at how much
time can be saved cutting tenons a scootch oversize and custom
trimming them during the dry fit. A swipe or two, and a perfect fit
is yours!

...

You have any particular recommendations? I've been watching for a while
but haven't leapt as I'm not sure what is/isn't value and/or desirable
models...


Either of the Veritas shoulder planes is a great place to start. I have
the medium, because of the scale of the work I do. I've briefly tested the
large, but I don't (yet) need one that big.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,41182,48945
&ccurrency=2&SID=

Patriarch
  #33   Report Post  
Ba r r y
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 08:51:58 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

Ba r r y wrote:
...
FWIW, once you use a good shoulder plane, you'll be amazed at how much
time can be saved cutting tenons a scootch oversize and custom
trimming them during the dry fit. A swipe or two, and a perfect fit
is yours!

...

You have any particular recommendations? I've been watching for a while
but haven't leapt as I'm not sure what is/isn't value and/or desirable
models...


I have the medium, bullnose, and large Veritas versions, and I love
them. The medium would be an excellent first shoulder plane. I've
also used Clifton 410 and 420 shoulder planes, they're excellent, but
I do not think they are worth the price difference over Veritas. The
LN versions were everything one would expect them to be when I tried
them. However, they don't make a medium shoulder plane.

I think a good, medium shoulder plane is a great second plane, after a
low angle block, for a shop with power jointing and thicknessing
equipment.

Barry

  #34   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 29 Dec 2004 14:10:29 -0800, "Bob" calmly
ranted:

A vintage stanley for $10????? When is the last time you shopped on
ebay? Nothing has been going for less than $50 for months, as I've
watched it. I must be missing something.


I picked up a #6-C for $15.49 in September, Bob.
A 1910 #78 went for $5.50 on 12/10, a #4 for $5.50 on 12/15,
a #5 for $7.99 on 12/25, several #110s for under $8 in December.
Tons of wood, iron, and transitional planes have been sold for
under $10, and I've paid under $30 for each of my half dozen
Stanleys (other than the pair of 45s) in the past decade.

You just haven't been "shopping" for them. Pay 'tenshun, boy.

-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design

  #35   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:14:47 GMT, Steve Knight
calmly ranted:


Another possibility for you is to buy one of Steve Knight's
smoothers. It's a wood plane with a thickarse blade. They cost
less than Veritas, too (by a whopping $4 and s/h.) Look for them
on Ebay or at his website at www.Knight-Toolworks.com . I own a
whole bevy of his planes and like them, using the smoother a lot.


my advertising money well spent (G)


Hehehe. I got those planes fair and square for weeks of work on
a previous design incarnation of your website. Speaking of which,
the site is 2 years old now (date-stamped 2002.) It's time for a
new design, Steve. (I should talk, my site hasn't been updated in
that time, either. blush )


hey I have been playing around with some/new planes for my first of the year
planes
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/web_...yearplanes.jpg


Ah, I can tell those are counterfit. They're already marked 2005 and
it's only 2004 now!


a couple of pocket planes one in ebony and one in zircote and some 7.5" long
finish planes in bubinga and rosewood. these have short blades so you hand fits
over the top and the finger grooves. I missed my low rider planes.
also making some 2.5" and 3" bladded jointers.


Ooh, jointer planes? scritch, scritch, scritch Let's talk!
I still don't own a Normite jointer and I never really got
fully comfortable with that bigass oaken bastihd of your earliest
design.

-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design



  #36   Report Post  
Larry Jaques
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:06:30 GMT, Steve Knight
calmly ranted:

On 29 Dec 2004 12:15:07 -0800, "Big Rob" wrote:

Buy a vintage stanley plane on ebay. If you're just looking for a
basic model you could probably get a Stanley #4 or #5 for less than
$10. You might have to buy a new blade though. That's another $20-30.
Get one from Ron Hock. The old planes are far superior to anything
Stanley or Veritas make today.

Or better yet buy a wooden plane from Knight Toolworks
(knight-toolworks.com) or Gordon (hntgordon.com).

Or even better still, make your own wooden plane. I have several home
made planes that work beautifully.


all good suggestions but for the first plane a old one may be a hard way to go
since the person has never used a plane and does not really understand how it
all works till he does. same with making one. I know I did both and it was a
pain in the rear (G) it's nice to start with a working plane so you know how a
plane should work.


Agreed. First, buy a good, old, working plane. Then learn how to
tune it up and to properly sharpen it. Then build your own if you
must. (This last part said to them, not you, Steve.

-----------------------------------------------
I'll apologize for offending someone...right
after they apologize for being easily offended.
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.diversify.com Inoffensive Web Design

  #37   Report Post  
Steve Knight
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Steve, considering developing new planes I have le challenge for you... why not
12 (literally) low angle blocks, smoothers and jacks, adjustable mouths? I think
that would fill a good niche of competition for you. Another would be skew angle
shoulder type planes used for cross grain tennon work. I'll be doing that and had
to buy some old used ones on eBay.

been there dunit (G) I have made a few low angle planes. but there really is not
much need. metal planes benefit from a low angle because they have blade
vibration problems that limit what woods they can handle. were a woodies does
not. Plus I found them very hard to adjust. I made them with a steel plate
epoxied to the plane iron bed.
I had made paired of skewed shoulder planes at 45. but it is a paid to need two
planes for a job like that and they are a pain to set.

--
Knight-Toolworks & Custom Planes
Custom made wooden planes at reasonable prices
See http://www.knight-toolworks.com For prices and ordering instructions.
  #38   Report Post  
Charlie Self
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike Marlow responds:


Plastic totes - yeah, one of mine has them. They're ugly. I don't like the
looks of them. But then, I don't like synthetic gun stocks either. Do they
work? You bet. Would a nice wood tote be better? Nope. Prettier? Hell
yes. But the point is, there is nothing inherently wrong with a plastic
tote.


Generally, I agree with your observations, until you reach the above. The
planes I've had with plastic knobs--rear totes were fine--all had raised seams,
and after a bit of use, I could always tell what was wrong with them. Or my
hand could.

Charlie Self
"A politician is an animal which can sit on a fence and yet keep both ears to
the ground." H. L. Mencken
  #39   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Paul Kierstead" wrote in message
...
Mike Marlow wrote:

Plastic totes - yeah, one of mine has them. They're ugly. I don't like

the
looks of them. But then, I don't like synthetic gun stocks either. Do

they
work? You bet. Would a nice wood tote be better? Nope. Prettier?

Hell
yes. But the point is, there is nothing inherently wrong with a plastic
tote.


I quite agree with you on all your points but this one. I own a few
Record planes and all the ones that get used a lot had the totes
replaced because *I* have found a plastic tote truly miserable when used
for heavily. Your hands get sweatier, they are uncomfortable and feel
awful. Wood is much much more pleasant to use if you are doing a fair
bit of planing. I would agree there isn't much difference if you are
just using them for a couple of quick swipes though.



That would be a good point. I haven't hit the point where the plastic
bothers me, but I can see where it could be a problem.
--

-Mike-




  #40   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Mike Marlow responds:


Plastic totes - yeah, one of mine has them. They're ugly. I don't like

the
looks of them. But then, I don't like synthetic gun stocks either. Do

they
work? You bet. Would a nice wood tote be better? Nope. Prettier?

Hell
yes. But the point is, there is nothing inherently wrong with a plastic
tote.


Generally, I agree with your observations, until you reach the above. The
planes I've had with plastic knobs--rear totes were fine--all had raised

seams,
and after a bit of use, I could always tell what was wrong with them. Or

my
hand could.


Oh man Charlie - that would bug me to no end. Any tool of mine that has a
molding seam like that gets an immediate treatment, whether it's a plastic
molding seam or a wood joint. I *hate* it when that starts to wear into
your hand after some use. Just one of my (many...) personal nuances...

--

-Mike-




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