I have a Red Oak cabinet "nearing completion". Today I finally
found a source for Watco products in my area. Thought I'd give it a
test to see how this product works.

So I bought Watco Black Walnut Danish Oil. Looking at the sample's.
The black Walnut is exactly the color I am looking for. I can do
this color with dye and gel stain. But would like to try the Watco
product.

The question I have is this. I want to fill the grain of this red
oak. I also want the grain to be as dark as possible. I have tinted
filler to do this previously with good results.

So what sequence do I follow. Do I fill the grain with the tinted
filler first, or after I use the danish oil. If someone could
explain the sequence it would be appreciated.

Pat

When you say sample, do you mean a sample you made up, or one in the store?
I bought a can a couple years ago and thought the effect was so bad I have
never used it; on maple and poplar it looks more soiled than walnut. Maybe
it works better on oak.
If you are going by the store's sample, make one on the wood you will be
using before going too far.

I have used Behlen's waterbased filler. That goes on before staining. It
would make an awful mess afterwards.

Fill first, stain later. Check on scrap rather than your project, but I
should think something like the plaster-of-Paris fillers would certainly
out-absorb the wood for the effect you want. Oil-based fillers might not
take as much.


"SawDust" wrote in message
...


I have a Red Oak cabinet "nearing completion". Today I finally
found a source for Watco products in my area. Thought I'd give it a
test to see how this product works.

So I bought Watco Black Walnut Danish Oil. Looking at the sample's.
The black Walnut is exactly the color I am looking for. I can do
this color with dye and gel stain. But would like to try the Watco
product.

The question I have is this. I want to fill the grain of this red
oak. I also want the grain to be as dark as possible. I have tinted
filler to do this previously with good results.

So what sequence do I follow. Do I fill the grain with the tinted
filler first, or after I use the danish oil. If someone could
explain the sequence it would be appreciated.

Pat

I tried a few tests while waiting;

Filling wise. I use a product made by Elmer's called Fill'n'Finish.
It's a water based wood filler. Comes in a light and dark version.
I've had good results with it.

I used the dark version and tint it with acrylic artists colors. You
only need a very tiny amount to tint the filler to black or whatever
colour you want. Apply with a putty knife, scrape off the excess and
Let it dry about 15 minutes, then sanded with 320. Applied the Watco
as per the instructions and it's beautiful and like touching a piece
of satin. Problem, the Watco did not color the wood as deeply as the
store/brochure sample.

Just to note: If I filled without the tinting medium "which I tried".
I got the expected result. I lost the grain almost completely.

I think I'll have to stick with my current finishing process. Dye,
sealing, filling, sealing, glazing, then top coating. It's a PITA
but at least I have better color control and I get the results I'm
looking for.

I'll save the Watco for some Walnut... at a later date.


Pat


On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 16:07:50 -0500, "George" george@least wrote:

Fill first, stain later. Check on scrap rather than your project, but I
should think something like the plaster-of-Paris fillers would certainly
out-absorb the wood for the effect you want. Oil-based fillers might not
take as much.


"SawDust" wrote in message
.. .


I have a Red Oak cabinet "nearing completion". Today I finally
found a source for Watco products in my area. Thought I'd give it a
test to see how this product works.

So I bought Watco Black Walnut Danish Oil. Looking at the sample's.
The black Walnut is exactly the color I am looking for. I can do
this color with dye and gel stain. But would like to try the Watco
product.

The question I have is this. I want to fill the grain of this red
oak. I also want the grain to be as dark as possible. I have tinted
filler to do this previously with good results.

So what sequence do I follow. Do I fill the grain with the tinted
filler first, or after I use the danish oil. If someone could
explain the sequence it would be appreciated.

Pat

Hi Toller,

I tried a few tests while waiting;

Filling wise. I use a product made by Elmer's called Fill'n'Finish.
It's a water based wood filler. Comes in a light and dark version.
I've had good results with it.

I used the dark version and tint it with acrylic artists colors. You
only need a very tiny amount to tint the filler to black or whatever
colour you want. Apply with a putty knife, scrape off the excess and
Let it dry about 15 minutes, then sanded with 320. Applied the Watco
as per the instructions and it's beautiful and like touching a piece
of satin. Problem, the Watco did not color the wood as deeply as the
store/brochure sample.

Just to note: If I filled without the tinting medium "which I tried".
I got the expected result. I lost the grain almost completely.

I think I'll have to stick with my current finishing process. Dye,
sealing, filling, sealing, glazing, then top coating. It's a PITA
but at least I have better color control and I get the results I'm
looking for.

I'll save the Watco for some Walnut... at a later date.






On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 19:57:37 GMT, "toller" wrote:

When you say sample, do you mean a sample you made up, or one in the store?
I bought a can a couple years ago and thought the effect was so bad I have
never used it; on maple and poplar it looks more soiled than walnut. Maybe
it works better on oak.
If you are going by the store's sample, make one on the wood you will be
using before going too far.

I have used Behlen's waterbased filler. That goes on before staining. It
would make an awful mess afterwards.

SawDust wrote in
:

I'll save the Watco for some Walnut... at a later date.


I'd use Watco Natural on Walnut. You don't need the dye stain in the oil,
IMO.

Good luck with your project.

Patriarch

Thank You Patriarch.

Since you have used the Watco products more than I have, maybe you
might know the answer; If I continue to apply the dark walnut, since
there is a dye component, will the wood "red oak" continue to get
darker with subsequent applications.

For example: If I did one application of the watco. Let it dry.
Then filled the grain with tinted filler, sanded etc. Then start
applying more of the finish. Will the unfilled wood continue to get
darker.? My test piece "after one application" was just too light.
So I'm wondering if I can build the color...

Pat



On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 04:43:10 GMT, patriarch
wrote:

SawDust wrote in
:

I'll save the Watco for some Walnut... at a later date.


I'd use Watco Natural on Walnut. You don't need the dye stain in the oil,
IMO.

Good luck with your project.

Patriarch

SawDust wrote in
:

Thank You Patriarch.

Since you have used the Watco products more than I have, maybe you
might know the answer; If I continue to apply the dark walnut, since
there is a dye component, will the wood "red oak" continue to get
darker with subsequent applications.

For example: If I did one application of the watco. Let it dry.
Then filled the grain with tinted filler, sanded etc. Then start
applying more of the finish. Will the unfilled wood continue to get
darker.? My test piece "after one application" was just too light.
So I'm wondering if I can build the color...

Pat

Well, Rule #1 is experiment, on wood that you're using, with the techniques
as you understand them. That's better than some remote expert(1)
pontificating. And rule #1 didn't originate with me, by the way, although
I've tried to adopt it.

If what you want is the dye component, then get a dye. The varnish oil (2)
is a finish, and the dye is along for the ride. The varnish oil is a
challenge in red oak, since the structure of the wood encourages absorption
and weeping, as the oil cures. It can be made to work, but is, at the same
time, an annoyance. And varnish oil is popular not only for the nice feel
it leaves, but also because it is so simple to use. Subsequent
applications do not absorb color as deeply, because the cell structure has
oil curing from the earlier applications, partially blocking the dye.

The absorption characteristic of red oak can/will likely make dying
interesting also, so have plenty of practice pieces ready. An alcohol
carrier, by itself, tones _extremely_ quickly, and can tend towards a
blotchy coloration. Fortunately, alcohol is also the solvent for shellac,
which can conteract the blotchies. A light base coat of 1lb blonde
shellac, followed by dye-amended shellac, can be padded on, and with proper
care, you have your color coats. It's a surface film finish, so it feels
different than an oil, but, hand rubbed with a good clear wax and 0000
synthetic steel wool, you get a delightful look. Used by anyone with
roots/ties/connections/respect for the College of the Redwoods.

Now about me. I've been doing this enthusiasticly for less than 5 years,
as a hobby, and therapy from the corporate world. There are many more
expert in finishing technique than I. Some of them, no longer with us in
this life, have much of their shared wisdom archived, thanks to Google, and
prior to that, Dejanews. When you search, pay careful attention to one
gentle fellow, Paul Radonivic, or Paully Rad, and enjoy his expertise.

I work in red oak, because that's what my wife likes, it's local, and it
matches much of the commercial furniture we have accumulated over 30+
years. And, since we often learn most completely from our mistakes, I've
learned more than a little bit on how not to work red oak. Enjoy your
learning path.

Patriarch

(1) One definition of an expert: x = an unknown quantity. spurt = a drip
under pressure. Hence expert = unknown drip under pressure. Source
unknown, but not me.

(2) varnish oil: linseed, tung or similar oils, with a modest varnish
component. Watco is one of many. Homebrews are/were plentiful. See
articles from real experts, ie: Flexner, Jewitt, et al.

(1) One definition of an expert: x = an unknown quantity. spurt = a drip
under pressure. Hence expert = unknown drip under pressure. Source
unknown, but not me.
almost right...an "ex" is a "has been" therefore expert is "has been
under pressure".
hee hee
rich

Hello Patriarch,

Sorry for the late reply. Unfortunately I had to work the last couple
of days - they were long shifts.

Yes, experimentation is the key.

My current finish starts with a dye. It was the only way I could find
to get close to the dark chestnut brown that I wanted.

I'm going to try a test, dye, grain filing. But rather than seal
everything with minwax satin poly, I'll try top coating with the oil
varnish and see what happens.

Thanks for all the info below. I'll be doing some searching.

Pat




On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:08:43 GMT, patriarch
wrote:

SawDust wrote in
:

Thank You Patriarch.

Since you have used the Watco products more than I have, maybe you
might know the answer; If I continue to apply the dark walnut, since
there is a dye component, will the wood "red oak" continue to get
darker with subsequent applications.

For example: If I did one application of the watco. Let it dry.
Then filled the grain with tinted filler, sanded etc. Then start
applying more of the finish. Will the unfilled wood continue to get
darker.? My test piece "after one application" was just too light.
So I'm wondering if I can build the color...

Pat

Well, Rule #1 is experiment, on wood that you're using, with the techniques
as you understand them. That's better than some remote expert(1)
pontificating. And rule #1 didn't originate with me, by the way, although
I've tried to adopt it.

If what you want is the dye component, then get a dye. The varnish oil (2)
is a finish, and the dye is along for the ride. The varnish oil is a
challenge in red oak, since the structure of the wood encourages absorption
and weeping, as the oil cures. It can be made to work, but is, at the same
time, an annoyance. And varnish oil is popular not only for the nice feel
it leaves, but also because it is so simple to use. Subsequent
applications do not absorb color as deeply, because the cell structure has
oil curing from the earlier applications, partially blocking the dye.

The absorption characteristic of red oak can/will likely make dying
interesting also, so have plenty of practice pieces ready. An alcohol
carrier, by itself, tones _extremely_ quickly, and can tend towards a
blotchy coloration. Fortunately, alcohol is also the solvent for shellac,
which can conteract the blotchies. A light base coat of 1lb blonde
shellac, followed by dye-amended shellac, can be padded on, and with proper
care, you have your color coats. It's a surface film finish, so it feels
different than an oil, but, hand rubbed with a good clear wax and 0000
synthetic steel wool, you get a delightful look. Used by anyone with
roots/ties/connections/respect for the College of the Redwoods.

Now about me. I've been doing this enthusiasticly for less than 5 years,
as a hobby, and therapy from the corporate world. There are many more
expert in finishing technique than I. Some of them, no longer with us in
this life, have much of their shared wisdom archived, thanks to Google, and
prior to that, Dejanews. When you search, pay careful attention to one
gentle fellow, Paul Radonivic, or Paully Rad, and enjoy his expertise.

I work in red oak, because that's what my wife likes, it's local, and it
matches much of the commercial furniture we have accumulated over 30+
years. And, since we often learn most completely from our mistakes, I've
learned more than a little bit on how not to work red oak. Enjoy your
learning path.

Patriarch

(1) One definition of an expert: x = an unknown quantity. spurt = a drip
under pressure. Hence expert = unknown drip under pressure. Source
unknown, but not me.

(2) varnish oil: linseed, tung or similar oils, with a modest varnish
component. Watco is one of many. Homebrews are/were plentiful. See
articles from real experts, ie: Flexner, Jewitt, et al.

SawDust wrote:
Hello Patriarch,

Sorry for the late reply. Unfortunately I had to work the last
couple
of days - they were long shifts.

Yes, experimentation is the key.

My current finish starts with a dye. It was the only way I could
find
to get close to the dark chestnut brown that I wanted.

I'm going to try a test, dye, grain filing. But rather than seal
everything with minwax satin poly, I'll try top coating with the oil
varnish and see what happens.

Thanks for all the info below. I'll be doing some searching.

Pat




On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 19:08:43 GMT, patriarch
wrote:

SawDust wrote in
:

Thank You Patriarch.

Since you have used the Watco products more than I have, maybe you
might know the answer; If I continue to apply the dark walnut,
since
there is a dye component, will the wood "red oak" continue to get
darker with subsequent applications.

For example: If I did one application of the watco. Let it dry.
Then filled the grain with tinted filler, sanded etc. Then start
applying more of the finish. Will the unfilled wood continue to
get
darker.? My test piece "after one application" was just too
light.
So I'm wondering if I can build the color...

Pat

Well, Rule #1 is experiment, on wood that you're using, with the
techniques
as you understand them. That's better than some remote expert(1)
pontificating. And rule #1 didn't originate with me, by the way,
although
I've tried to adopt it.

If what you want is the dye component, then get a dye. The varnish
oil (2)
is a finish, and the dye is along for the ride. The varnish oil is
a
challenge in red oak, since the structure of the wood encourages
absorption
and weeping, as the oil cures. It can be made to work, but is, at
the same
time, an annoyance. And varnish oil is popular not only for the
nice feel
it leaves, but also because it is so simple to use. Subsequent
applications do not absorb color as deeply, because the cell
structure has
oil curing from the earlier applications, partially blocking the
dye.

The absorption characteristic of red oak can/will likely make dying
interesting also, so have plenty of practice pieces ready. An
alcohol
carrier, by itself, tones _extremely_ quickly, and can tend towards
a
blotchy coloration. Fortunately, alcohol is also the solvent for
shellac,
which can conteract the blotchies. A light base coat of 1lb blonde
shellac, followed by dye-amended shellac, can be padded on, and with
proper
care, you have your color coats. It's a surface film finish, so it
feels
different than an oil, but, hand rubbed with a good clear wax and
0000
synthetic steel wool, you get a delightful look. Used by anyone
with
roots/ties/connections/respect for the College of the Redwoods.

Now about me. I've been doing this enthusiasticly for less than 5
years,
as a hobby, and therapy from the corporate world. There are many
more
expert in finishing technique than I. Some of them, no longer with
us in
this life, have much of their shared wisdom archived, thanks to
Google, and
prior to that, Dejanews. When you search, pay careful attention to
one
gentle fellow, Paul Radonivic, or Paully Rad, and enjoy his
expertise.

I work in red oak, because that's what my wife likes, it's local,
and it
matches much of the commercial furniture we have accumulated over
30+
years. And, since we often learn most completely from our mistakes,
I've
learned more than a little bit on how not to work red oak. Enjoy
your
learning path.

Patriarch

(1) One definition of an expert: x = an unknown quantity. spurt =
a drip
under pressure. Hence expert = unknown drip under pressure. Source

unknown, but not me.

(2) varnish oil: linseed, tung or similar oils, with a modest
varnish
component. Watco is one of many. Homebrews are/were plentiful.
See
articles from real experts, ie: Flexner, Jewitt, et al.