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  #31   Report Post  
Old May 24th 21, 05:51 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default Murphy bed progress

On 5/24/2021 11:24 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, May 24, 2021 at 11:32:34 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/23/2021 5:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 23, 2021 at 4:37:03 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/21/2021 4:04 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 15:37:28 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/21/2021 12:24 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 10:13:02 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/19/2021 5:18 PM, Leon wrote:
So the bed section, that which folds up, now only needs the hardware to
be attached, lightly sanded, and painted.

I used the Shaper Origin to cut 6 arcs on the top rails of the platform.

I used a plug-in program for Sketchup to produce the needed SVG file for
the arc.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...in/dateposted/

Glued and pinned.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...in/dateposted/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...in/dateposted/

And getting heavier.


Much easier to visualize now. In the room and wall that it will
eventually be located.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...in/dateposted/

I understand the concept of the Murphy bed. But it does look heavy
for even that. It's going to take some pistons to lift that.



Yes, gas struts like on GM vehicle hoods, Ford too. I built one of
these about 10 years ago with the basic same hardware from the same
company. It works well and the hardware is plenty sturdy. AND the
manufacturer has plans to build it and several parts have to made out of
3/4" plywood to prevent slitting and failure at the pressure points of
the pivot.

I am right at the 80 lb weight limit for the mattress and the company
modified the plans for me for the 14" thick mattress.

Eighty pounds isn't as much as I thought. That's only a sheet of 3/4"
plywood. I was thinking three times that, anyway. Gas struts will
easily handle that.
Total weight for the mattress and the fold down platform are probably
close to double that.

So the bed frame that pivots will be elevated up about 4" to mate the
male and female pivot hardware.

Up and out, if I understand? Is it going to need a ladder to get into
the bed?

UP only to assemble, from sitting on the floor now. After that is only
fold/pivot out.

And no, I think it will be close to normal bed height, nothing like the
beds that I build with a double stack set of drawers on the bottom.

This is the one I built 10 years ago with 10" mattress.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...in/dateposted/

And closed, notice that the platform is elevated off of the floor about
4~5". That was what I was talking about above.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...n/photostream/

When are you going to build one of these?

Unless a customer wants one, probably never.

This style bed, horizontal vs. vertical is also available in a queen
IIRC. The horizontal have a larger foot print and waste more wall space
usable wall space.
That is, for the bed with out the fold out desk, more so with the desk.


This link takes you to the company that made my kit. They have a boat
load of pictures of both vertical and horizontal beds.

https://www.createabed.com/?gclid=Cj...EaAswQEALw_wcB

https://i.imgur.com/n2cM86p.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8AlasZn.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XjSbmBh.jpg

There's a built-in tower on the left that you can't see.

The height of the side rails leaves about foot of space so you
don't have to clean everything off the desk.

I have seen similar fold out desks on the vertical versions too. The
link above shows them.


My SIL found that bed/desk on Craigslist. Turned a small office into a
office/guestroom.

A vertical bed wouldn't fit in the room shown. In the lower right corner of
the second image you can see the left half of a suitcase and a duffel-type
bag to the left of that. The suitcase is up against the wall opposite the bed,
so you should be able to get a feel for how narrow the room is.

If I recall correctly, the unit actually came with 2 side towers, but the room
was only big enough for one.

While a horizontal bed does use more wall space, that's not the biggest issue.
The biggest issue is only having one open side. With 2 people sharing the bed,
the person on the inside has to enter/exit the bed from the end if there is a
person on the outside. Crawling into bed from the end isn't so bad when
compared to crawling out. Try that sometime. Make believe you can't leave
the bed on either side. It truly sucks.

Oh, yeah...the bed is pretty high off the floor. I used a step stool to make getting
in and out easier.


OH, Cool, I thought this was the internet picture of what she bought
vs. in her home.

Tall? :~)

This is ours that I build 11 years ago. The mattress top is 35" high.
My wife uses a stool.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...in/dateposted/

If you zoom in on the bottom right side you will notice a double deck of
drawers, 6 on this side, 6 on the opposite side, and 6 hidden in the
middle between the left and right side drawers, yes 18 drawers.

This was GREAT Until we bought Termurpedic king mattresses with the
articulating lifts for the head and feet. Guess how tall that would
have been! LOL. We moved the bottom with the drawers out for about 2
years. Last Spring I shortened the height of the bottom and drawers to
a single layer of drawers, 9 drawers now, and placed the articulating
bed frame and mattresses back on top. I had to remove the 8 extension
feet from the articulating frame so that the height is only 36". ;~)





  #32   Report Post  
Old May 24th 21, 06:59 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 2,833
Default Murphy bed progress

On Mon, 24 May 2021 10:07:06 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/23/2021 3:35 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2021 18:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:10:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I'm surprised the dog holes last. I have some benches made out of MDF
on solid core doors (particle board). I was planning to drill (route)
dog holes in it but was afraid they wouldn't hold up.

I wonder if the term "dog holes" are being stretched here. I think Leon uses the holes with the Festool clamps, which do not rely on the strength of the hole or having a thick table. Traditional dogs require at least 1 1/2" table thickness. I use 3/4" round dogs and hold-down clamps. I have a re-purposed dining table that has a 3/4" solid wood top. I glued pieces of 3/4" baltic birch underneath, then drilled 3/4" holes using the Leevalley 3/4" drill guide to drill the holes with a hand drill. It works really well and seems to be holding up.

Perhaps but I've seen in-line bench clamps used with MFT tables.

Two of my tables have an 1-5/8" solid core door, one with MDF and the
other, melamine, sacrificial tops. I also have a couple of 1-3/4"
maple-top benches but I'm not concerned with them yet. Yes, I'd like
to use the Festool style clamps in the MDF topped bench, if it's not
too thick, but also in-line bench clamps, dogs, and similar.



Soooo what do you need a dog to do?


Hold linear or toggle clamps and a dog at the other end. I don't plan
on puting a vise on either bench.

If you use the Festool "clamping elements" on the 3/4" MDF surface they
will slightly tilt under pressure. But that does not hinder the use.
The dogs and the clamps have rubber pressure surfaces. AND with those
clamps mine included get large handle screws for the bottom of the dogs
and or clamps. They hold the clamp and dogs flat under pressure.


Screws on dogs? The dogs I've seen are just round metal or plastic
with a flat on the top side and maybe a spring along the dog's side to
hold them in the hole.
  #33   Report Post  
Old May 24th 21, 10:42 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Apr 2011
Posts: 12,155
Default Murphy bed progress

On 5/24/2021 12:59 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2021 10:07:06 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/23/2021 3:35 PM,
wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2021 18:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:10:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I'm surprised the dog holes last. I have some benches made out of MDF
on solid core doors (particle board). I was planning to drill (route)
dog holes in it but was afraid they wouldn't hold up.

I wonder if the term "dog holes" are being stretched here. I think Leon uses the holes with the Festool clamps, which do not rely on the strength of the hole or having a thick table. Traditional dogs require at least 1 1/2" table thickness. I use 3/4" round dogs and hold-down clamps. I have a re-purposed dining table that has a 3/4" solid wood top. I glued pieces of 3/4" baltic birch underneath, then drilled 3/4" holes using the Leevalley 3/4" drill guide to drill the holes with a hand drill. It works really well and seems to be holding up.

Perhaps but I've seen in-line bench clamps used with MFT tables.

Two of my tables have an 1-5/8" solid core door, one with MDF and the
other, melamine, sacrificial tops. I also have a couple of 1-3/4"
maple-top benches but I'm not concerned with them yet. Yes, I'd like
to use the Festool style clamps in the MDF topped bench, if it's not
too thick, but also in-line bench clamps, dogs, and similar.



Soooo what do you need a dog to do?


Hold linear or toggle clamps and a dog at the other end. I don't plan
on puting a vise on either bench.


I do that all the time with the Festool dogs and clamps. On the MFT table.




If you use the Festool "clamping elements" on the 3/4" MDF surface they
will slightly tilt under pressure. But that does not hinder the use.
The dogs and the clamps have rubber pressure surfaces. AND with those
clamps mine included get large handle screws for the bottom of the dogs
and or clamps. They hold the clamp and dogs flat under pressure.


Screws on dogs? The dogs I've seen are just round metal or plastic
with a flat on the top side and maybe a spring along the dog's side to
hold them in the hole.


The dogs that come with the Festool clamps. I do also use the round SS
Parf? dogs but only on occasion. The hard surface will dent the work.
All of the horizontal Festool clamping element parts, clamp and dog have
rubber pads and are flat.

IF you want the clamp or the dog to not move you screw in the
bolt/holders into the clamp and or dog from the bottom of the MFT table.
The screw has a large ball shaped handle for easy grip.

Would pictures help?
  #34   Report Post  
Old May 25th 21, 01:52 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,833
Default Murphy bed progress

On Mon, 24 May 2021 16:42:03 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/24/2021 12:59 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2021 10:07:06 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/23/2021 3:35 PM,
wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2021 18:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:10:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I'm surprised the dog holes last. I have some benches made out of MDF
on solid core doors (particle board). I was planning to drill (route)
dog holes in it but was afraid they wouldn't hold up.

I wonder if the term "dog holes" are being stretched here. I think Leon uses the holes with the Festool clamps, which do not rely on the strength of the hole or having a thick table. Traditional dogs require at least 1 1/2" table thickness. I use 3/4" round dogs and hold-down clamps. I have a re-purposed dining table that has a 3/4" solid wood top. I glued pieces of 3/4" baltic birch underneath, then drilled 3/4" holes using the Leevalley 3/4" drill guide to drill the holes with a hand drill. It works really well and seems to be holding up.

Perhaps but I've seen in-line bench clamps used with MFT tables.

Two of my tables have an 1-5/8" solid core door, one with MDF and the
other, melamine, sacrificial tops. I also have a couple of 1-3/4"
maple-top benches but I'm not concerned with them yet. Yes, I'd like
to use the Festool style clamps in the MDF topped bench, if it's not
too thick, but also in-line bench clamps, dogs, and similar.



Soooo what do you need a dog to do?


Hold linear or toggle clamps and a dog at the other end. I don't plan
on puting a vise on either bench.


I do that all the time with the Festool dogs and clamps. On the MFT table.


Now the question, 20mm or 3/4". ;-)


If you use the Festool "clamping elements" on the 3/4" MDF surface they
will slightly tilt under pressure. But that does not hinder the use.
The dogs and the clamps have rubber pressure surfaces. AND with those
clamps mine included get large handle screws for the bottom of the dogs
and or clamps. They hold the clamp and dogs flat under pressure.


Screws on dogs? The dogs I've seen are just round metal or plastic
with a flat on the top side and maybe a spring along the dog's side to
hold them in the hole.


The dogs that come with the Festool clamps. I do also use the round SS
Parf? dogs but only on occasion. The hard surface will dent the work.
All of the horizontal Festool clamping element parts, clamp and dog have
rubber pads and are flat.


OK.

IF you want the clamp or the dog to not move you screw in the
bolt/holders into the clamp and or dog from the bottom of the MFT table.
The screw has a large ball shaped handle for easy grip.

Would pictures help?


I got it. I hadn't seen the screws on dogs. The way my bench is
constructed I think it would be a PITA. Clamps (from the bottom) are
going to be a PITA too. How do you us them on your PAULK bench?

  #35   Report Post  
Old May 25th 21, 07:43 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 931
Default Murphy bed progress

Leon [email protected] wrote in
:


This was GREAT Until we bought Termurpedic king mattresses with the
articulating lifts for the head and feet. Guess how tall that would
have been! LOL. We moved the bottom with the drawers out for about 2
years. Last Spring I shortened the height of the bottom and drawers
to a single layer of drawers, 9 drawers now, and placed the
articulating bed frame and mattresses back on top. I had to remove
the 8 extension feet from the articulating frame so that the height is
only 36". ;~)


Only!

Any higher and you'll have to install blinking lights so pilots don't hit
you while you're trying to sleep!

Puckdroper


  #36   Report Post  
Old May 25th 21, 08:48 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Apr 2011
Posts: 12,155
Default Murphy bed progress

On 5/24/2021 7:52 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2021 16:42:03 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/24/2021 12:59 PM,
wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2021 10:07:06 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/23/2021 3:35 PM,
wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2021 18:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:10:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I'm surprised the dog holes last. I have some benches made out of MDF
on solid core doors (particle board). I was planning to drill (route)
dog holes in it but was afraid they wouldn't hold up.

I wonder if the term "dog holes" are being stretched here. I think Leon uses the holes with the Festool clamps, which do not rely on the strength of the hole or having a thick table. Traditional dogs require at least 1 1/2" table thickness. I use 3/4" round dogs and hold-down clamps. I have a re-purposed dining table that has a 3/4" solid wood top. I glued pieces of 3/4" baltic birch underneath, then drilled 3/4" holes using the Leevalley 3/4" drill guide to drill the holes with a hand drill. It works really well and seems to be holding up.

Perhaps but I've seen in-line bench clamps used with MFT tables.

Two of my tables have an 1-5/8" solid core door, one with MDF and the
other, melamine, sacrificial tops. I also have a couple of 1-3/4"
maple-top benches but I'm not concerned with them yet. Yes, I'd like
to use the Festool style clamps in the MDF topped bench, if it's not
too thick, but also in-line bench clamps, dogs, and similar.



Soooo what do you need a dog to do?

Hold linear or toggle clamps and a dog at the other end. I don't plan
on puting a vise on either bench.


I do that all the time with the Festool dogs and clamps. On the MFT table.


Now the question, 20mm or 3/4". ;-)


There is no appreciable difference.

Most of these MFT wtyle benches with holes are accurately laid out for
using dogs as stops for you track saw track. IMHO that is the most
obvious reason for snug fit dogs. Other wise a little play has never
been an issue for me.


There is also Armor Tools.

They make a MFT style work bench but it is mounted on wheels.
Something to think about, a bench on wheels will move more than a wobbly
MFT bench.

BUT the Armor bench is less expensive and has a pretty good clamp system
too. I got one of the horizontal clamps and it works well on the MFT too.


Check out their video

https://armor-tool.com/product/36x25...e-and-casters/




If you use the Festool "clamping elements" on the 3/4" MDF surface they
will slightly tilt under pressure. But that does not hinder the use.
The dogs and the clamps have rubber pressure surfaces. AND with those
clamps mine included get large handle screws for the bottom of the dogs
and or clamps. They hold the clamp and dogs flat under pressure.

Screws on dogs? The dogs I've seen are just round metal or plastic
with a flat on the top side and maybe a spring along the dog's side to
hold them in the hole.


The dogs that come with the Festool clamps. I do also use the round SS
Parf? dogs but only on occasion. The hard surface will dent the work.
All of the horizontal Festool clamping element parts, clamp and dog have
rubber pads and are flat.


OK.

IF you want the clamp or the dog to not move you screw in the
bolt/holders into the clamp and or dog from the bottom of the MFT table.
The screw has a large ball shaped handle for easy grip.

Would pictures help?


I got it. I hadn't seen the screws on dogs. The way my bench is
constructed I think it would be a PITA. Clamps (from the bottom) are
going to be a PITA too. How do you us them on your PAULK bench?


So the clamps are on top, the dog fits the hole and the retainer bolt
screws into the bottom of the dog. BUT you do not have to screw them
down. I mostly use mine just like any dog, drop it in.

I do not use them on my Paulk bench. My Paulk bench has no holes and
dogs would not work well in 1/2" material anyway so just hold down
clamps would work best.
  #37   Report Post  
Old May 25th 21, 10:25 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,833
Default Murphy bed progress

On Tue, 25 May 2021 14:48:52 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/24/2021 7:52 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2021 16:42:03 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/24/2021 12:59 PM,
wrote:
On Mon, 24 May 2021 10:07:06 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 5/23/2021 3:35 PM,
wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2021 18:44:44 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:10:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:
I'm surprised the dog holes last. I have some benches made out of MDF
on solid core doors (particle board). I was planning to drill (route)
dog holes in it but was afraid they wouldn't hold up.

I wonder if the term "dog holes" are being stretched here. I think Leon uses the holes with the Festool clamps, which do not rely on the strength of the hole or having a thick table. Traditional dogs require at least 1 1/2" table thickness. I use 3/4" round dogs and hold-down clamps. I have a re-purposed dining table that has a 3/4" solid wood top. I glued pieces of 3/4" baltic birch underneath, then drilled 3/4" holes using the Leevalley 3/4" drill guide to drill the holes with a hand drill. It works really well and seems to be holding up.

Perhaps but I've seen in-line bench clamps used with MFT tables.

Two of my tables have an 1-5/8" solid core door, one with MDF and the
other, melamine, sacrificial tops. I also have a couple of 1-3/4"
maple-top benches but I'm not concerned with them yet. Yes, I'd like
to use the Festool style clamps in the MDF topped bench, if it's not
too thick, but also in-line bench clamps, dogs, and similar.



Soooo what do you need a dog to do?

Hold linear or toggle clamps and a dog at the other end. I don't plan
on puting a vise on either bench.

I do that all the time with the Festool dogs and clamps. On the MFT table.


Now the question, 20mm or 3/4". ;-)


There is no appreciable difference.

Most of these MFT wtyle benches with holes are accurately laid out for
using dogs as stops for you track saw track. IMHO that is the most
obvious reason for snug fit dogs. Other wise a little play has never
been an issue for me.


There is also Armor Tools.

They make a MFT style work bench but it is mounted on wheels.
Something to think about, a bench on wheels will move more than a wobbly
MFT bench.


Like I said, my benches are 30" doors on Kreg frames and castors. They
don't wobble at all. If all four casters are locked, it's not going
anywhere.

BUT the Armor bench is less expensive and has a pretty good clamp system
too. I got one of the horizontal clamps and it works well on the MFT too.


The butcher block top is nice. It's reasonable, too, but small.

Check out their video

https://armor-tool.com/product/36x25...e-and-casters/


I have two other 30" x 72" benches (in storage right now) with 1-3/4'
butcher block tops. Intend to put vises on them but the others were
intended to be for cutting and assembly. Right now they're holding
junk off the floor.



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