On 5/16/2021 7:29 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 15:45:26 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/16/2021 1:30 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 11:34:06 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/16/2021 7:48 AM, Jack wrote:
On 5/13/2021 6:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 1:55 PM, G Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 9:46 AM, knuttle wrote:
No lines here!'

Of course not.Â* But we don't have oil wells or refineries here.

But I only have 1 oil well in my back yard.Â* ;~)

I knew it.Â* You have too much common sense to spend $6-700 on a shop
vac, unless...


LOL, That multi hundred dollar shop vac, let's call it the dust
extractor, has run every time and as for as long as my 4 Festool
sanders, Domino mortiser, Festool track saw, and Kapex miter saw all
combined. Plus a few other tools. It is 13 years old. I'd buy it
again with out much thought.

When you look at the price of a high-end house vac, it's not all that
ridiculous. Sure, it's a lot more than a "5.5HP" Crapsman shop vac
but a $99 Hoover isn't a decent household vac either.



About 30 years ago I bought a Ricar home vacuum cleaner. Still own it,
and it was similar in price to the Festool vac.
Lite weight, built to last, could suck up and digest a quarter. But we
switched to a Roomba 13 years ago, on our 3rd now, and do not use the
big vac anymore.

I remember Eletrolux vacuums being well over $1000, 50 years ago.

The CT48 works really well the saw, sanders, and routers. SCMSs are
hopeless. I have three cheap BORG vacs (garage, shop, and drywall
dust) for everything else.


The CT and the Kapex work really well, maybe better then the track saw.

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:37:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 15:53:25 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.



And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.
One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.
Don't be so sure about that. I've been in a similar accident. Even
though the airbags went off and the driver (me) uninjured, the
steering wheel was pretty well bent towards the dash (way towards). If
you're holding onto the steering wheel you, and your arms, go forward
to meet the airbag. The hands are still gripping the steering wheel,
so it takes a beating. Steering wheels are designed to deform and the
columns collapse for exactly this reason. Airbags help but only keep
you in the vehicle and your torso away from other solid objects. The
arms aren't restrained at all. Take a look at a crash dummy test
sometime. It's ugly.

Well, that supports everything I've said about the Tesla steering wheel.

It is very possible that it was physically deformed by the driver and then
thermotically deformed by the fire. I further submit that those 2 different
types of deformations will be detectable by the investigators.

(I'm glad you didn't get hurt)

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 11:38:19 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.

The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

800 or 550? Not that it matters that much, but this article says 550'.

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

I posted that link a few days ago. I'm not sure if you had a chance to read the article.

It states that a security camera recorded the owner getting into the driver's seat
shortly before the crash. That is why I am speculating that the doctor was driving
at the time of the crash and was knocked into the back seat on impact.

As I said in my earlier post, the following is why I don't think the doctor was letting the car
drive itself and was in fact knocked into the back seat during the crash. Remember, the
security camera captured him getting into the driver's seat and the popo said the crash
occurred at high speed. We also have Tesla's VP of engineering stating that the steering
wheel was deformed, and as K has verified via his personal experience, the steering wheel
can be deformed by the driver during a crash.

*****

"So, in about 1/10th of a mile, the driver got the car up to a high speed, engaged the cruise
control and then moved into the back seat. That sure is some fancy footwork.. ;-)

and...

"The NTSB report said the 2019 Model S went off the road on a curve, drove over a curb,
hit a drainage culvert, a raised manhole and a tree."

Now, it doesn't specifically say that the vehicle ever got airborne, but I lost a dear friend
when his truck went off a road and hit a drainage culvert. The resulting "bounce" resulted
in my friend being ejected through the open window. Perhaps the good doctor was bounced
into the back seat due to driving at a high speed over a curb, into a drainage culvert, over a
raised manhole and into a tree.

That's a lot of jostling."

*****

In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.

Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.

I expect I could get used to it. It would help with my narrow garage,
too. I think I have 5 inches to spare with my current car, and have
at some point hit the side and needed to replaced side mirrors on all
other cars I've owned.

The mirror's image plane would be at infinity, as would the image of
the oncoming traffc. The camera/display's image plane would be at the
mirror so would take a major refocus. Refocusing is slow, or
impossible, for us old farts.

If you can't refocus at all, that makes me concerned being on the road
with you driving.

Elijah
------[*] That's just cars, not trucks / pickups / SUVs / etc.

Eli the Bearded writes:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.

Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.

I expect I could get used to it. It would help with my narrow garage,
too. I think I have 5 inches to spare with my current car, and have
at some point hit the side and needed to replaced side mirrors on all
other cars I've owned.

I have this handy switch on the drivers door that folds the
mirrors back when heading into the narrow garage.

That said, I'd have no problems with a well done vision system
replacing the side mirrors, I wonder if a full width three-inch
tall stripe across the top of the windshield that provided a 240
degree or so view of the rear all the time would be too distracting.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-4, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.
Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

Except that comment made was referring to the rearview mirror, not the
sideview mirrors.

Studies have shown that the drag caused by the rearview mirror is
significantly less than 3%.

On 5/17/2021 2:41 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-4, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.
Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

Except that comment made was referring to the rearview mirror, not the
sideview mirrors.

Studies have shown that the drag caused by the rearview mirror is
significantly less than 3%.


Hmmmm. the studies ere probably funded with a $20 million government
grant too.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Tesla’s vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didn’t say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-4, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.
Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.
Except that comment made was referring to the rearview mirror, not the
sideview mirrors.

Studies have shown that the drag caused by the rearview mirror is
significantly less than 3%.

I don't believe that's been studied, but I will believe that result.

Completely replacing the center rearview mirror is probably a bad idea.
Supplementing it with a camera is good. I back into my garage (to drive
out forward) and it is 100 times easier with the backup camera. That
said, I'd not want to use that camera, with those optics, for looking at
things further than 20 feet, nor would I trust that it remains
unobstructed in all weather conditions (particularly snow).

In vehicles that have traditionally lacked a center rearview mirror,
replacing it with a camera of some sort is a clear win. I first started
to notice garbage trucks with such about fifteen years ago.

Elijah
------
doesn't know if the garbage trucks only had them active in reverse

On Mon, 17 May 2021 18:06:37 +0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded
wrote:

In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.

Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

Not buying that one. It's still a lousy way to do a "mirror".

It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.

I expect I could get used to it. It would help with my narrow garage,
too. I think I have 5 inches to spare with my current car, and have
at some point hit the side and needed to replaced side mirrors on all
other cars I've owned.

There is not getting "used to it", just as there is no "getting used
to" being blind. I suspect you're a young un or haven't actually used
one of these things. Physics is physics.

The mirror's image plane would be at infinity, as would the image of
the oncoming traffc. The camera/display's image plane would be at the
mirror so would take a major refocus. Refocusing is slow, or
impossible, for us old farts.

If you can't refocus at all, that makes me concerned being on the road
with you driving.

Have you ever heard of eyeglasses? Yep, you must be a kid.

Just wait a few years. At fifty I found I couldn't see anymore.
Cheaters helped for maybe a year, then right to bifocals and
immediately after that to progressive lenses. Getting old is a bitch
and presbyopia is only a small part of the bargain.

....and no, I can't change focus, along with millions of other drivers.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 15:12:25 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 5/17/2021 2:41 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-4, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.
Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

Except that comment made was referring to the rearview mirror, not the
sideview mirrors.

Studies have shown that the drag caused by the rearview mirror is
significantly less than 3%.


Hmmmm. the studies ere probably funded with a $20 million government
grant too.

More like $100M/%

Makes better numbers.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 09:23:05 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:37:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 15:53:25 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Tesla’s vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.



And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.
One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.
Don't be so sure about that. I've been in a similar accident. Even
though the airbags went off and the driver (me) uninjured, the
steering wheel was pretty well bent towards the dash (way towards). If
you're holding onto the steering wheel you, and your arms, go forward
to meet the airbag. The hands are still gripping the steering wheel,
so it takes a beating. Steering wheels are designed to deform and the
columns collapse for exactly this reason. Airbags help but only keep
you in the vehicle and your torso away from other solid objects. The
arms aren't restrained at all. Take a look at a crash dummy test
sometime. It's ugly.

Well, that supports everything I've said about the Tesla steering wheel.

Except the part about telling the difference after that fire.

It is very possible that it was physically deformed by the driver and then
thermotically deformed by the fire. I further submit that those 2 different
types of deformations will be detectable by the investigators.

(I'm glad you didn't get hurt).

The airbags just may have saved my life. I'm on anticoagulants and a
good bump to the head isn't healthy.

I was really sore the next day but noting like when I was in a full
speed rear-ender on an I94 in Minneapolis in my brother's bug. That
time the steering wheel was fully bent the other way.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Tesla’s vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didn’t say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

His home or where he rests?

On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Tesla’s vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didn’t say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

Could be but the momentum suggests otherwise. With no seatbelts, I'd
expect that the hither probability would be that they would be
ejected, perhaps through the windscreen or even the top as the car
disintegrated.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 18:30:42 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Eli the Bearded writes:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.

Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.

I expect I could get used to it. It would help with my narrow garage,
too. I think I have 5 inches to spare with my current car, and have
at some point hit the side and needed to replaced side mirrors on all
other cars I've owned.

I have this handy switch on the drivers door that folds the
mirrors back when heading into the narrow garage.

That said, I'd have no problems with a well done vision system
replacing the side mirrors, I wonder if a full width three-inch
tall stripe across the top of the windshield that provided a 240
degree or so view of the rear all the time would be too distracting.
I just added "side view" cameras on my 1996 Ranger that come on with
the directional signals. Eliminates the blind spot completely. Also
added the backup cammera at the same time - with 8 inch touch-screen
stereo providing the display.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-4, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.
Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

Except that comment made was referring to the rearview mirror, not the
sideview mirrors.

Studies have shown that the drag caused by the rearview mirror is
significantly less than 3%.
Depends on whether you are talking aerodynamic "flippers" or "baby
west coast" mirrors I guess - and it als depends if it is a relatively
low-drag vehicle to start with or a "bill-board on wheels"

On Mon, 17 May 2021 20:03:13 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 18:30:42 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

Eli the Bearded writes:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.

Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.

I expect I could get used to it. It would help with my narrow garage,
too. I think I have 5 inches to spare with my current car, and have
at some point hit the side and needed to replaced side mirrors on all
other cars I've owned.

I have this handy switch on the drivers door that folds the
mirrors back when heading into the narrow garage.

That said, I'd have no problems with a well done vision system
replacing the side mirrors, I wonder if a full width three-inch
tall stripe across the top of the windshield that provided a 240
degree or so view of the rear all the time would be too distracting.
I just added "side view" cameras on my 1996 Ranger that come on with
the directional signals. Eliminates the blind spot completely. Also
added the backup cammera at the same time - with 8 inch touch-screen
stereo providing the display.

Gotta have the display. A few years ago I added a Garmin GPS with a
WiFi rearview camera to my '13 F150. It works reasonably well, though
it will miss frames so backing up close to things (like my garage
door) has to be done very carefully.

I'm not all that interested in a blind spot camera. The warning
lights on the mirrors work well. I wish I had them, too. My wife's
Mustang has all that stuff. It even has the automatic dimmer that
works surprisingly well. People flash their brights at us anyway. The
LED headlamps are *BRIGHT*. Her last Mustang had HID lights but
they're nothing compared to the LEDs.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 7:27:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 09:23:05 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:37:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 15:53:25 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.



And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.
One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.
Don't be so sure about that. I've been in a similar accident. Even
though the airbags went off and the driver (me) uninjured, the
steering wheel was pretty well bent towards the dash (way towards). If
you're holding onto the steering wheel you, and your arms, go forward
to meet the airbag. The hands are still gripping the steering wheel,
so it takes a beating. Steering wheels are designed to deform and the
columns collapse for exactly this reason. Airbags help but only keep
you in the vehicle and your torso away from other solid objects. The
arms aren't restrained at all. Take a look at a crash dummy test
sometime. It's ugly.

Well, that supports everything I've said about the Tesla steering wheel.
Except the part about telling the difference after that fire.

Neither you nor I know that answer. *Something* led the VP of Engineering
to speculate that the wheel was deformed by the driver. They actually saw
the vehicle.

Could just be CYA, but the deformation that they (the company) found indicated
the "likelihood that someone was in the drivers seat at the time of the crash."

It is very possible that it was physically deformed by the driver and then
thermotically deformed by the fire. I further submit that those 2 different
types of deformations will be detectable by the investigators.

(I'm glad you didn't get hurt).

The airbags just may have saved my life. I'm on anticoagulants and a
good bump to the head isn't healthy.

I was really sore the next day but noting like when I was in a full
speed rear-ender on an I94 in Minneapolis in my brother's bug. That
time the steering wheel was fully bent the other way.

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 7:33:03 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.
Could be but the momentum suggests otherwise. With no seatbelts, I'd
expect that the hither probability would be that they would be
ejected, perhaps through the windscreen or even the top as the car
disintegrated.

Facts matter: It wasn't the occupant*s* that ended in the back seat.
One occupant was in the front passenger seat i.e. not ejected.

Keep in mind that the vehicle went over a curb, hit a drainage culvert and
a raised man hole cover. With all that bouncing around, The driver could
have been bounced into the backseat before they hit the tree.

Over the center console between the front seats and then at some point
slid/bounced to the left rear seat where his body was found.

I'm not sure how else to explain the fact that the security camera captured
the owner getting into the drivers seat and then ~1/10 mile (550') later
he was in the backseat. Granted, I have not seen a timeline of events.
Maybe he got in the driver seat at the house, pulled out of range of
the camera, stopped, moved to the rear seat and then got the car up to
a "high speed" (as per the popo) before the vehicle ran off the road.

I guess that's possible.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 18:06:37 +0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded
wrote:

In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.

Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.

I expect I could get used to it. It would help with my narrow garage,
too. I think I have 5 inches to spare with my current car, and have
at some point hit the side and needed to replaced side mirrors on all
other cars I've owned.

The mirror's image plane would be at infinity, as would the image of
the oncoming traffc. The camera/display's image plane would be at the
mirror so would take a major refocus. Refocusing is slow, or
impossible, for us old farts.

If you can't refocus at all, that makes me concerned being on the road
with you driving.

As you get older your accomodation goes to Hell. My vision is still
20:15, it's just that it used to be 20:15 from two inches to infinity,
and now it's 20:15 from 18 inches to 24 inches.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 22:29:01 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 18:06:37 +0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded
wrote:

In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.

Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.

I expect I could get used to it. It would help with my narrow garage,
too. I think I have 5 inches to spare with my current car, and have
at some point hit the side and needed to replaced side mirrors on all
other cars I've owned.

The mirror's image plane would be at infinity, as would the image of
the oncoming traffc. The camera/display's image plane would be at the
mirror so would take a major refocus. Refocusing is slow, or
impossible, for us old farts.

If you can't refocus at all, that makes me concerned being on the road
with you driving.

As you get older your accomodation goes to Hell. My vision is still
20:15, it's just that it used to be 20:15 from two inches to infinity,
and now it's 20:15 from 18 inches to 24 inches.

I'm not that lucky. I can still see relatively well at infinity but,
along with the presbyopia I developed astigmatisms in both eyes (often
another result of the focus mechanism freezing). That's why cheaters
don't work either.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

People who don't know cars don't really understand how fast a Tesla
is. In 800 feet from a standing start a Model S Plaid Plus can be
going over 90 mph while a Model 3 can be going over 70.

On Mon, 17 May 2021 22:47:13 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Tesla’s vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didn’t say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

People who don't know cars don't really understand how fast a Tesla
is. In 800 feet from a standing start a Model S Plaid Plus can be
going over 90 mph while a Model 3 can be going over 70.

If you google Tesla S acceleration a few you tubes that pop up can
help.

On 5/17/2021 2:06 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.

Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

It would drive me crazy, and probably everyone else over 40.

I expect I could get used to it. It would help with my narrow garage,
too. I think I have 5 inches to spare with my current car, and have
at some point hit the side and needed to replaced side mirrors on all
other cars I've owned.

The mirror's image plane would be at infinity, as would the image of
the oncoming traffc. The camera/display's image plane would be at the
mirror so would take a major refocus. Refocusing is slow, or
impossible, for us old farts.

If you can't refocus at all, that makes me concerned being on the road
with you driving.

Elijah
------
[*] That's just cars, not trucks / pickups / SUVs / etc.

I'm in my 20's, and I surely couldn't stand some kind of display for a
side or rear view mirror. No thank you! Wait until those systems start
to have issues when the car gets older... good luck.

In my '94 Geo Metro hatch, passenger side mirror was an option that the
original owner didn't spring for... it saves 1 MPG, give or take. I
haven't been in any kind of a hurry since 2015 to install one... I don't
particularly miss it. That being said, lack of driver's mirror or rear
view mirror would be an issue.

On 5/17/2021 4:06 PM, Markem618 wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Yeah, sort'a like an electric golf cart. LOL. I have a friend that has
a Tesla and he was not really happy with that comparison but we were at
a golf cart repair facility at the time.



Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

On 5/17/2021 6:32 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

Could be but the momentum suggests otherwise. With no seatbelts, I'd
expect that the hither probability would be that they would be
ejected, perhaps through the windscreen or even the top as the car
disintegrated.


I think most of the damage to the car was because of the 4 hour fire.

On 5/17/2021 9:47 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

People who don't know cars don't really understand how fast a Tesla
is. In 800 feet from a standing start a Model S Plaid Plus can be
going over 90 mph while a Model 3 can be going over 70.



And that explanation is not an indicator of how fast either is. You
described how quick they are.


And while your example may be correct. I seriously doubt the vehicle
was going 30 in that neighborhood. There would have been much more
front end damage at that speed.

On 5/17/2021 6:27 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

His home or where he rests?



Starting point. ;~)

On 5/17/2021 8:13 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 7:27:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 09:23:05 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 8:37:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sun, 16 May 2021 15:53:25 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.



And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.
One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.
Don't be so sure about that. I've been in a similar accident. Even
though the airbags went off and the driver (me) uninjured, the
steering wheel was pretty well bent towards the dash (way towards). If
you're holding onto the steering wheel you, and your arms, go forward
to meet the airbag. The hands are still gripping the steering wheel,
so it takes a beating. Steering wheels are designed to deform and the
columns collapse for exactly this reason. Airbags help but only keep
you in the vehicle and your torso away from other solid objects. The
arms aren't restrained at all. Take a look at a crash dummy test
sometime. It's ugly.

Well, that supports everything I've said about the Tesla steering wheel.
Except the part about telling the difference after that fire.

Neither you nor I know that answer. *Something* led the VP of Engineering
to speculate that the wheel was deformed by the driver. They actually saw
the vehicle.

That something was very likely damage control PR.


Could just be CYA, but the deformation that they (the company) found indicated
the "likelihood that someone was in the drivers seat at the time of the crash."

It is very possible that it was physically deformed by the driver and then
thermotically deformed by the fire. I further submit that those 2 different
types of deformations will be detectable by the investigators.

(I'm glad you didn't get hurt).

The airbags just may have saved my life. I'm on anticoagulants and a
good bump to the head isn't healthy.

I was really sore the next day but noting like when I was in a full
speed rear-ender on an I94 in Minneapolis in my brother's bug. That
time the steering wheel was fully bent the other way.

On 5/17/2021 5:43 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-4, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.
Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.
Except that comment made was referring to the rearview mirror, not the
sideview mirrors.

Studies have shown that the drag caused by the rearview mirror is
significantly less than 3%.

I don't believe that's been studied, but I will believe that result.

I think he was kidding, of course an inside rear view mirror will not
create any drag outside the vehicle.

Clare Snyder writes:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-4, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.
Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.

Except that comment made was referring to the rearview mirror, not the
sideview mirrors.

Studies have shown that the drag caused by the rearview mirror is
significantly less than 3%.
Depends on whether you are talking aerodynamic "flippers" or "baby
west coast" mirrors I guess - and it als depends if it is a relatively
low-drag vehicle to start with or a "bill-board on wheels"

I suspect tongue-in-cheek, if one differentiates between the side
mirrors and the "rearview" mirror. The latter only has the potential
to add to drag on a convertable.

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 9:47:11 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/17/2021 6:32 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new...12/613656..htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

Could be but the momentum suggests otherwise. With no seatbelts, I'd
expect that the hither probability would be that they would be
ejected, perhaps through the windscreen or even the top as the car
disintegrated.

I think most of the damage to the car was because of the 4 hour fire.

I posted this link at least 3 times already. Do you not agree with the fire marshal
that the "4 hour fire" reports are just a bit misleading?

"Tesla Fire in Texas Crash Was Not How It Was Reported, Says Fire Chief"

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ls-fire-chief/

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 9:50:27 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/17/2021 9:47 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new...12/613656..htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

People who don't know cars don't really understand how fast a Tesla
is. In 800 feet from a standing start a Model S Plaid Plus can be
going over 90 mph while a Model 3 can be going over 70.

And that explanation is not an indicator of how fast either is. You
described how quick they are.


And while your example may be correct. I seriously doubt the vehicle
was going 30 in that neighborhood. There would have been much more
front end damage at that speed.

So you are speculating that the speed was *less* than 30 MPH?

On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 9:56:15 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/17/2021 5:43 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-4, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.
Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.
Except that comment made was referring to the rearview mirror, not the
sideview mirrors.

Studies have shown that the drag caused by the rearview mirror is
significantly less than 3%.

I don't believe that's been studied, but I will believe that result.
I think he was kidding, of course an inside rear view mirror will not
create any drag outside the vehicle.

I guess I should have included a smiley.

On 5/16/2021 12:34 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 7:48 AM, Jack wrote:
On 5/13/2021 6:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 1:55 PM, G Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 9:46 AM, knuttle wrote:
No lines here!'

Of course not.Â* But we don't have oil wells or refineries here.

But I only have 1 oil well in my back yard.Â* ;~)

I knew it.Â* You have too much common sense to spend $6-700 on a shop
vac, unless...


LOL,Â* That multi hundred dollar shop vac, let's call it the dust
extractor, has run every time and as for as long as my 4 Festool
sanders, Domino mortiser, Festool track saw, and Kapex miter saw all
combined.Â* Plus a few other tools.Â* It is 13 years old.Â* I'd buy it
again with out much thought.
Well why not, if you have an oil well in your back yard:-)

My wet or dry Shop vac, which I bought around 1975, and used for around
40 years until I decided it would never break, so I replaced it with a
much quieter vac, still runs like brand new. I'll call it a shop vac
because that's it's name and is what it actually is... and I'm not too
sure how many $hundreds you have to over pay before it converts to a
"dust extractor".

And check this out, all the old hoses and attachments fit perfectly in
my new, Ridged vac. No need to dig another well if I want more hoses and
attachments:-)
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

On 5/18/2021 1:23 PM, Jack wrote:
On 5/16/2021 12:34 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 7:48 AM, Jack wrote:
On 5/13/2021 6:37 PM, Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 1:55 PM, G Ross wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 5/13/2021 9:46 AM, knuttle wrote:
No lines here!'

Of course not.Â* But we don't have oil wells or refineries here.

But I only have 1 oil well in my back yard.Â* ;~)

I knew it.Â* You have too much common sense to spend $6-700 on a shop
vac, unless...


LOL,Â* That multi hundred dollar shop vac, let's call it the dust
extractor, has run every time and as for as long as my 4 Festool
sanders, Domino mortiser, Festool track saw, and Kapex miter saw all
combined.Â* Plus a few other tools.Â* It is 13 years old.Â* I'd buy it
again with out much thought.
Well why not, if you have an oil well in your back yard:-)

My wet or dry Shop vac, which I bought around 1975, and used for around
40 years until I decided it would never break, so I replaced it with a
much quieter vac, still runs like brand new. I'll call it a shop vac
because that's it's name and is what it actually is... and I'm not too
sure how many $hundreds you have to over pay before it converts to a
"dust extractor".

And check this out, all the old hoses and attachments fit perfectly in
my new, Ridged vac. No need to dig another well if I want more hoses and
attachments:-)


;~) But , But , But... LOL

On 5/18/2021 9:37 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 9:47:11 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/17/2021 6:32 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

Could be but the momentum suggests otherwise. With no seatbelts, I'd
expect that the hither probability would be that they would be
ejected, perhaps through the windscreen or even the top as the car
disintegrated.

I think most of the damage to the car was because of the 4 hour fire.

I posted this link at least 3 times already. Do you not agree with the fire marshal
that the "4 hour fire" reports are just a bit misleading?

"Tesla Fire in Texas Crash Was Not How It Was Reported, Says Fire Chief"

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ls-fire-chief/




OK, ;~) a matter of minutes, 240 or them. or It burned for 3 hours
before they arrived, or .... ;~)

Never, never, never let the facts get in the way of a good story!.

On 5/18/2021 9:39 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 9:50:27 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/17/2021 9:47 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Mon, 17 May 2021 16:06:06 -0500, Markem618
wrote:

On Mon, 17 May 2021 10:38:10 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 5/17/2021 8:50 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, May 16, 2021 at 4:53:32 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/16/2021 8:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 6:56:48 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
DerbyDad03 writes:
On Saturday, May 15, 2021 at 3:30:11 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
Actually 40 years ago one of our car salesmen rolled a new Toronado 1=20
mile from the dealership. It burned after he got out, the steering=20
wheel was not a normal shape.

The deformation of a steering wheel caused by heat would not be the same
deformation as caused by impact.=20

And the Tesla Model S has at least two types of steering wheel;
the Yoke style may look deformed to someone expecting a standard
round steering wheel.

Once again you've proved that all you are doing is reading these posts
and slamming them without having done any actual research.

I'm pretty that sure that Teslas vice president of vehicle engineering,
Lars Moravy, would not be "expecting a standard round steering wheel."

He was the one that said the company found the steering wheel of
the vehicle to be deformed.

And more speculation, the crash was at 30 mph.

I posted this the last time you said that the crash was at 30 MPH:

*****
Not according to the po-po.

This is dated May 12, 2021:

https://www.insurancejournal.com/new.../12/613656.htm

"The report didnt say how fast the car was going, but Harris County Precinct Four
Constable Mark Herman said it was a high speed."
*****

I'm not sure what Mr. Herman means by "high speed", but I'm speculating that it
was more than 30 MPH.

Even you said "Seems to me a 30 mph crash should not have been so devastating."

One would think that if there was some one in the drivers seat that the
air bag would have gone off and prevented the driver from deforming the
steering wheel. And the vehicle was not to be badly damaged from the
crash so much as from the fire.



The crash site was 800 feet from his home.

Maybe he put it in ludicrous mode, then went plaid.

The torque available to accelerate in a Tesla is way different than a
old fashion auto.

Not sure if Musk was a fan of Space Balls, but seems somewhere I saw
that the high sport mode was title after the movies line.

I am going with no seat belts and the occupants ended in the back.

People who don't know cars don't really understand how fast a Tesla
is. In 800 feet from a standing start a Model S Plaid Plus can be
going over 90 mph while a Model 3 can be going over 70.

And that explanation is not an indicator of how fast either is. You
described how quick they are.


And while your example may be correct. I seriously doubt the vehicle
was going 30 in that neighborhood. There would have been much more
front end damage at that speed.

So you are speculating that the speed was *less* than 30 MPH?
Type-O meant 90 and or 70.

On 5/18/2021 10:36 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, May 18, 2021 at 9:56:15 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 5/17/2021 5:43 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, May 17, 2021 at 2:06:40 PM UTC-4, Eli the Bearded wrote:
In rec.woodworking, wrote:
I don't see what's gained by just substituting a camera/display for a
mirror.
Fuel efficiency. On a modern car[*] it's (IIRC) 3% of drag caused by just
side mirrors.
Except that comment made was referring to the rearview mirror, not the
sideview mirrors.

Studies have shown that the drag caused by the rearview mirror is
significantly less than 3%.

I don't believe that's been studied, but I will believe that result.
I think he was kidding, of course an inside rear view mirror will not
create any drag outside the vehicle.

I guess I should have included a smiley.



YEAH! With out a smiley face it is FACT!!! LOL