A waste of time?
It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here.
https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? |
A waste of time?
"Waste of time" has to account for all the side-effects. Once the glue sets, the glue should be stronger than the wood, so no other fasteners are needed. But... did the dowels help you assemble it? Did they maintain alignment for you? I use biscuits for all my glue-ups, despite trusting the glue, because overall they're worth the effort. So no, I don't think they're a waste of time. |
A waste of time?
On 12/19/2020 12:47 AM, DJ Delorie wrote:
"Waste of time" has to account for all the side-effects. Once the glue sets, the glue should be stronger than the wood, so no other fasteners are needed. But... did the dowels help you assemble it? Did they maintain alignment for you? I use biscuits for all my glue-ups, despite trusting the glue, because overall they're worth the effort. So no, I don't think they're a waste of time. Biscuits are a God send for glue ups and you do not need a biscuit cutter to use them. I use a slot cut bit on my router table. With one fence to control the positioning of the slot and a second putter kickback fence, I can cut the 8 end grain slots in a picture frame in less than two minutes. I cut the left end of the piece from the right side of the bit, and the right end of the piece from the left side. All perfectly aligned as to pitch and position. With more pieces, the proper arrangement of the pieces, and getting into the swing, the two minutes per 8 pieces can be bettered. Set up takes 5 to 8 minutes. I have a jig to help with the vertical setting and use a metal ruler to set the horizontal position in the piece. I have used the same set up without the kick back fence to cut the slot for the pieces to glue up a table top. It takes a little longer, but like the end grain cut they are precisely aligned to the piece. If I were doing this a lot I would work up a jig. The system is a little difficult to cut the slots in a 4X8 piece of plywood ;-) |
A waste of time?
On 12/19/2020 9:20 AM, knuttle wrote:
On 12/19/2020 12:47 AM, DJ Delorie wrote: "Waste of time" has to account for all the side-effects.Â* Once the glue sets, the glue should be stronger than the wood, so no other fasteners are needed.Â* But... did the dowels help you assemble it?Â* Did they maintain alignment for you?Â* I use biscuits for all my glue-ups, despite trusting the glue, because overall they're worth the effort. So no, I don't think they're a waste of time. Biscuits are a God send for glue ups and you do not need a biscuit cutter to use them.Â*Â* I use a slot cut bit on my router table. With one fence to control the positioning of the slot and a second putter kickback fence,Â* I can cut the 8 end grain slots in a picture frame in less than two minutes. I cut the left end of the piece from the right side of the bit, and the right end of the piece from the left side. All perfectly aligned as to pitch and position. With more pieces, the proper arrangement of the pieces, and getting into the swing, the two minutes per 8 pieces can be bettered. Set up takes 5 to 8 minutes.Â* I have a jig to help with the vertical setting and use a metal ruler to set the horizontal position in the piece. I have used the same set up without the kick back fence to cut the slot for the pieces to glue up a table top.Â* It takes a little longer, but like the end grain cut they are precisely aligned to the piece.Â* If I were doing this a lot I would work up a jig. The system is a little difficult to cut the slots in a 4X8 piece of plywood ;-) PS: I use the 1/8" X 1 7/8 slot cutter and the Veritas mini Biscuits from Lee Valley that are designed for an 1 7/8 slot. They fit nicely into a 1X2 board |
A waste of time?
On Fri, 18 Dec 2020 21:10:57 -0800 (PST), Greg Guarino
wrote: It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here. https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? A common view is that glue is stronger than the wood. But it oversimplifies. Just one issue that is usually not considered is that many commonly used woodworking glues creep if the loads are applied to encourage it. The dowels will prevent that creep. |
A waste of time?
On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 00:47:33 -0500, DJ Delorie wrote:
"Waste of time" has to account for all the side-effects. Once the glue sets, the glue should be stronger than the wood, so no other fasteners are needed. But... did the dowels help you assemble it? Did they maintain alignment for you? I use biscuits for all my glue-ups, despite trusting the glue, because overall they're worth the effort. I have a PC plate jointer, used it once and will sell it _cheap_ on eBay some day I get some time and motivation. I thought it was the worst abomination I've ever used. It sounds like a Mack truck with an open exhaust crossed with a locomotive without wheel bearings. The slot is so loose that I don't see how anyone could use the stupid thing. It's been sitting on the shelf for years. So no, I don't think they're a waste of time. I understood that he was gluing end-grain as well. That never works well. |
A waste of time?
On 12/18/2020 11:10 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here. https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? Absolutely a waste of tome for strength. |
A waste of time?
On 12/19/2020 12:02 PM, Leon wrote:
On 12/18/2020 11:10 PM, Greg Guarino wrote: It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here. https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? Absolutely a waste of tome for strength. Instead of dowels on something this massive, just put a clamp over the joint on each end to insure that both halves are not slipping up or down after you squeeze them together. |
A waste of time?
On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 1:05:55 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 12/19/2020 12:02 PM, Leon wrote: On 12/18/2020 11:10 PM, Greg Guarino wrote: It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here. https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? Absolutely a waste of tome for strength. Instead of dowels on something this massive, just put a clamp over the joint on each end to insure that both halves are not slipping up or down after you squeeze them together. Thanks for the replies. I was happy not to have to worry about the alignment, but I suspected that the dowels were not needed for strength. |
A waste of time?
On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 12:55:21 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2020 00:47:33 -0500, DJ Delorie wrote: "Waste of time" has to account for all the side-effects. Once the glue sets, the glue should be stronger than the wood, so no other fasteners are needed. But... did the dowels help you assemble it? Did they maintain alignment for you? I use biscuits for all my glue-ups, despite trusting the glue, because overall they're worth the effort. I have a PC plate jointer, used it once and will sell it _cheap_ on eBay some day I get some time and motivation. I thought it was the worst abomination I've ever used. It sounds like a Mack truck with an open exhaust crossed with a locomotive without wheel bearings. The slot is so loose that I don't see how anyone could use the stupid thing. It's been sitting on the shelf for years. So no, I don't think they're a waste of time. I understood that he was gluing end-grain as well. That never works well. Not end grain. Long grain. |
A waste of time?
On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? For me, its not a question of time. It's about stress. I get stressed if I am doing a glue-up that requires jostleing long or heavy pieces. Dowels or dominoes or (pick your own) greatly eliminate stress, especially if you need to use clamps to pull it together in alignment. You don't have to be concerned about the joint slipping around as you try to align it. I like doing things without stress. I'm not going to engage in an argument about strength. Bob |
A waste of time?
On 12/19/2020 4:41 PM, Bob D wrote:
On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote: Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? For me, its not a question of time. It's about stress. I get stressed if I am doing a glue-up that requires jostleing long or heavy pieces. Dowels or dominoes or (pick your own) greatly eliminate stress, especially if you need to use clamps to pull it together in alignment. You don't have to be concerned about the joint slipping around as you try to align it. I like doing things without stress. I'm not going to engage in an argument about strength. Bob Depending upon the project, tapping a couple of brads in perpendicular to the mating surface on one board and then snipping off the head leaving just a bit of the brad proud will also do the trick. Spread the glue, position the pieces and slowly clamp them together. They will not shift. |
A waste of time?
On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 10:46:26 PM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 12/19/2020 4:41 PM, Bob D wrote: On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote: Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? For me, its not a question of time. It's about stress. I get stressed if I am doing a glue-up that requires jostleing long or heavy pieces. Dowels or dominoes or (pick your own) greatly eliminate stress, especially if you need to use clamps to pull it together in alignment. You don't have to be concerned about the joint slipping around as you try to align it. I like doing things without stress. I'm not going to engage in an argument about strength. Bob Depending upon the project, tapping a couple of brads in perpendicular to the mating surface on one board and then snipping off the head leaving just a bit of the brad proud will also do the trick. Spread the glue, position the pieces and slowly clamp them together. They will not shift. So first, that sounds pretty clever. But that only stops the pieces from shifting from whatever position they were in when they first "mate". The dowels also help the pieces mate in the proper alignment, a boon for a guy like me who is low on experience. |
A waste of time?
On Sunday, December 20, 2020 at 8:58:19 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 10:46:26 PM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote: On 12/19/2020 4:41 PM, Bob D wrote: On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote: Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? For me, its not a question of time. It's about stress. I get stressed if I am doing a glue-up that requires jostleing long or heavy pieces. Dowels or dominoes or (pick your own) greatly eliminate stress, especially if you need to use clamps to pull it together in alignment. You don't have to be concerned about the joint slipping around as you try to align it. I like doing things without stress. I'm not going to engage in an argument about strength. Bob Depending upon the project, tapping a couple of brads in perpendicular to the mating surface on one board and then snipping off the head leaving just a bit of the brad proud will also do the trick. Spread the glue, position the pieces and slowly clamp them together. They will not shift. So first, that sounds pretty clever. But that only stops the pieces from shifting from whatever position they were in when they first "mate". The dowels also help the pieces mate in the proper alignment, a boon for a guy like me who is low on experience. I agree. The brads will hold for some cases but they do not guarantee initial alignment, especially if the glue up is anything but flat on the table. A lot of my joints are done with simple butt joints and dominoes (no rebates or dados). That's just my simple style for things that really don't show. Bob |
A waste of time?
On 12/20/2020 4:53 PM, Bob D wrote:
On Sunday, December 20, 2020 at 8:58:19 AM UTC-6, wrote: On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 10:46:26 PM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote: On 12/19/2020 4:41 PM, Bob D wrote: On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote: Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? For me, its not a question of time. It's about stress. I get stressed if I am doing a glue-up that requires jostleing long or heavy pieces. Dowels or dominoes or (pick your own) greatly eliminate stress, especially if you need to use clamps to pull it together in alignment. You don't have to be concerned about the joint slipping around as you try to align it. I like doing things without stress. I'm not going to engage in an argument about strength. Bob Depending upon the project, tapping a couple of brads in perpendicular to the mating surface on one board and then snipping off the head leaving just a bit of the brad proud will also do the trick. Spread the glue, position the pieces and slowly clamp them together. They will not shift. So first, that sounds pretty clever. But that only stops the pieces from shifting from whatever position they were in when they first "mate". The dowels also help the pieces mate in the proper alignment, a boon for a guy like me who is low on experience. I agree. The brads will hold for some cases but they do not guarantee initial alignment, especially if the glue up is anything but flat on the table. A lot of my joints are done with simple butt joints and dominoes (no rebates or dados). That's just my simple style for things that really don't show. Bob Yep, not ideal for all (probably not for most) situations, but it's one more way to skin the cat. If every solution to a problem is a hammer, you ain't trying! ;) |
A waste of time?
On 12/19/2020 4:41 PM, Bob D wrote:
On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote: Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? For me, its not a question of time. It's about stress. I get stressed if I am doing a glue-up that requires jostleing long or heavy pieces. Dowels or dominoes or (pick your own) greatly eliminate stress, especially if you need to use clamps to pull it together in alignment. You don't have to be concerned about the joint slipping around as you try to align it. I like doing things without stress. I'm not going to engage in an argument about strength. Bob Some things get better with age and a repeated process. For a long time I never noticed "new car smell" and now "wood smell", and now gluing does not stress me. The problems with dowels is that they have to be dead on perfectly aligned or the clamping procedure becomes difficult. With Dominos, similar to biscuits, I cut an exact fit for one side and the elongated mortise for the mating side., no stress! ;~) |
A waste of time?
On 12/20/2020 5:53 PM, Bob D wrote:
On Sunday, December 20, 2020 at 8:58:19 AM UTC-6, wrote: On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 10:46:26 PM UTC-5, Unquestionably Confused wrote: On 12/19/2020 4:41 PM, Bob D wrote: On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote: Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? For me, its not a question of time. It's about stress. I get stressed if I am doing a glue-up that requires jostleing long or heavy pieces. Dowels or dominoes or (pick your own) greatly eliminate stress, especially if you need to use clamps to pull it together in alignment. You don't have to be concerned about the joint slipping around as you try to align it. I like doing things without stress. I'm not going to engage in an argument about strength. Bob Depending upon the project, tapping a couple of brads in perpendicular to the mating surface on one board and then snipping off the head leaving just a bit of the brad proud will also do the trick. Spread the glue, position the pieces and slowly clamp them together. They will not shift. So first, that sounds pretty clever. But that only stops the pieces from shifting from whatever position they were in when they first "mate". The dowels also help the pieces mate in the proper alignment, a boon for a guy like me who is low on experience. I agree. The brads will hold for some cases but they do not guarantee initial alignment, especially if the glue up is anything but flat on the table. A lot of my joints are done with simple butt joints and dominoes (no rebates or dados). That's just my simple style for things that really don't show. Bob I tried this for a while before I got the Slot cutter bit for biscuiting. Problem I found, while theoretically it should go straight into the other piece, it depended on the hardness of the grain. The different parts of the grain are of different densities. If the hard part was at an angle to the fact of the cut, the nail would raise up a little, miss aligning the pieces. |
A waste of time?
On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 12:11:02 AM UTC-5, wrote:
It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here. https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? I've used biscuits, dowels and dominoes but don't really recommend them for most flat-panel glue-ups. That said, if your milling is not great (less than flat, straight and square) dowels could maybe provide a bit of insurance. For most panel glue-ups I just set them on the clamps and adjust them a bit with my thumb and forefinger to align. If it's a larger panel I almost always use slightly curved cauls to hold them in alignment a bit while clamping up. I'll also use an f-clamp or two to pull the ends into alignment if necessary. If I'm really struggling with a glue-up it tends to mean I've not done my milling very well. I'm not some neanderthal that scoffs at anything other than rub joints, but wrenching on clamps to pull boards into alignment for gluing is not something I'd encourage. Lastly, if you use biscuits be sure you leave enough trim allowance on the end so you don't cut into your slots. And if you do decide you don't like that panel layout you'll have slots to deal with if you cut it apart. JP |
A waste of time?
On 12/19/2020 12:10 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? I've glued up hundreds if not thousands of panels over the years. When I first began, I used dowels, full length slots with plywood splines, even all thread rods. I quickly learned that none of that was needed at all, and just made an easy task more difficult. The important part is the boards need to be flat, joints smooth and square. Minor adjustments can be made with cauls if needed, but your better off if your wood is milled flat and square. Using dowels is a task in it's self, and if alignment isn't perfect, then the glue up will not be perfect. Much easier w/o dowels. Biscuits are easy to use I guess, but if you don't need them for alignment, no reason to use them. Glue itself is stronger than the wood. Were dowels a waste of time... Probably not, you at least learned how to use dowels and get things lined up. Consider it a learning experience. I recently cut up an old table top I glued up 50 years ago for a lathe project. Towards the end of the turning F*&%ing dowels turned up in the middle of turning, spoiling the turning. At first I wondered what was happening as a weird defect turned up in the wood. -- Jack Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. |
A waste of time?
On Wednesday, December 30, 2020 at 10:35:11 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 12/19/2020 12:10 AM, Greg Guarino wrote: Were dowels a waste of time... Probably not, you at least learned how to use dowels and get things lined up. Consider it a learning experience. I was thinking that too, even as I did it. Thanks for the advice. |
A waste of time?
On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here. https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? I'm real late responding to this question. And I think what I am saying has already been said. But... For strength, long grain glued to log grain is super strong when glued and clamped using yellow glue. No need for additional mechanical fasteners like dowels. For alignment purposes, dowels would help. But I have never used dowels so I am skeptical its very easy to use them for alignment purposes. You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels. If you are that precise with drilling the dowels to make them actually work, why not just use a little of that effort to line up the boards and glue them up right in the first place. I do use biscuits for aligning boards to edge glue.. I guess they add strength too. But who cares since the long grain is super strong when done gluing. But biscuits are super easy to use and line up boards perfectly with no thought or effort. I don't think dowels are as easy to use as biscuits. Which is why biscuits were invented by Lamello I think a while ago. They replace cumbersome dowels for the lining up purposes. |
A waste of time?
On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:22:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote: On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote: It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here. https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? I'm real late responding to this question. And I think what I am saying has already been said. But... For strength, long grain glued to log grain is super strong when glued and clamped using yellow glue. No need for additional mechanical fasteners like dowels. For alignment purposes, dowels would help. But I have never used dowels so I am skeptical its very easy to use them for alignment purposes. You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels. If you are that precise with drilling the dowels to make them actually work, why not just use a little of that effort to line up the boards and glue them up right in the first place. I do use biscuits for aligning boards to edge glue. I guess they add strength too. But who cares since the long grain is super strong when done gluing. But biscuits are super easy to use and line up boards perfectly with no thought or effort. I don't think dowels are as easy to use as biscuits. Which is why biscuits were invented by Lamello I think a while ago. They replace cumbersome dowels for the lining up purposes. A decent doweling jig handles the alignment. You can buy them for not a huge amount of money, or make one. |
A waste of time?
On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 12:35:00 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote: It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here. https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? I'm real late responding to this question. And I think what I am saying has already been said. But... For strength, long grain glued to log grain is super strong when glued and clamped using yellow glue. No need for additional mechanical fasteners like dowels. For alignment purposes, dowels would help. But I have never used dowels so I am skeptical its very easy to use them for alignment purposes. You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels. If you are that precise with drilling the dowels to make them actually work, why not just use a little of that effort to line up the boards and glue them up right in the first place. I do use biscuits for aligning boards to edge glue. I guess they add strength too. But who cares since the long grain is super strong when done gluing. But biscuits are super easy to use and line up boards perfectly with no thought or effort. I don't think dowels are as easy to use as biscuits. Which is why biscuits were invented by Lamello I think a while ago. They replace cumbersome dowels for the lining up purposes. "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style... https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28 Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself, the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that your boards are the same thickness. ....and you index off the same surface. As mentioned before, I found a biscuit joiner to be absolutely useless for this purpose. The slot was so sloppy there was no way it would align the boards. |
A waste of time?
On 1/1/2021 2:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote: It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here. https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4 I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top. I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well. Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength? I'm real late responding to this question. And I think what I am saying has already been said. But... For strength, long grain glued to log grain is super strong when glued and clamped using yellow glue. No need for additional mechanical fasteners like dowels. For alignment purposes, dowels would help. But I have never used dowels so I am skeptical its very easy to use them for alignment purposes. You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels. If you are that precise with drilling the dowels to make them actually work, why not just use a little of that effort to line up the boards and glue them up right in the first place. I do use biscuits for aligning boards to edge glue. I guess they add strength too. But who cares since the long grain is super strong when done gluing. But biscuits are super easy to use and line up boards perfectly with no thought or effort. I don't think dowels are as easy to use as biscuits. Which is why biscuits were invented by Lamello I think a while ago. They replace cumbersome dowels for the lining up purposes. "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style... https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28 Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself, the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that your boards are the same thickness. Well alignment of the mating holes is the issue but there is a jig that allows you to stack the mating pieces. The jig has two holes, one on top of the other. Those holes allow for precise alignment of the mating surfaces. But it is imperative that the stacked boards do not shift at all. |
A waste of time?
On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote: "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style... https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28 Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself, the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that your boards are the same thickness. I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible. Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be), by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems. There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple procedure. My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game. -- Jack Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. |
A waste of time?
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 9:46:59 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote: "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style... https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28 Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself, the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that your boards are the same thickness. I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible. Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be), by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems. There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple procedure. My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game. -- Did you read my complete reply? I specifically said: "I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig... " The only comment I was addressing was this one from russellseaton1: "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." For the record: I don't use dowels or biscuits for alignment when gluing up panels. |
A waste of time?
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 9:46:59 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote: "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style... https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28 Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself, the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that your boards are the same thickness. I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible. Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be), by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems. There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple procedure. My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game. -- Did you read my entire response? I specifically said: "I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig..." My response was related only to this statement from russellseaton1: "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." For the record, I do not use dowels or biscuits when when gluing up panels. |
A waste of time?
On 1/3/2021 11:38 AM, Dave Marulli wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 9:46:59 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote: On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote: "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style... https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28 Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself, the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that your boards are the same thickness. I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible. Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be), by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems. There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple procedure. My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game. -- Did you read my complete reply? I specifically said: "I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig... " The only comment I was addressing was this one from russellseaton1: "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." For the record: I don't use dowels or biscuits for alignment when gluing up panels. I read your reply. I was answering your question of "how hard do you think it is to align with a self centering jig." I replied it is not automatic to get perfect dowel alignment even with a quality jig. You are simply wasting time and introducing potential problems for no reason so I am arguing against using dowels unless your boards are way out of wack, and even then, cauls are easier to use than dowels. Just my opinion though, you can do whatever you want, and offer whatever advice your little heart desires. -- Jack Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. |
A waste of time?
hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhOn Sun, 3 Jan 2021 14:58:20 -0500, Jack
wrote: On 1/3/2021 11:38 AM, Dave Marulli wrote: On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 9:46:59 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote: On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote: "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style... https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28 Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself, the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that your boards are the same thickness. I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible. Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be), by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems. There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple procedure. My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game. -- Did you read my complete reply? I specifically said: "I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig... " The only comment I was addressing was this one from russellseaton1: "You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels." For the record: I don't use dowels or biscuits for alignment when gluing up panels. I read your reply. I was answering your question of "how hard do you think it is to align with a self centering jig." You may have read but you didn't comprehend. I replied it is not automatic to get perfect dowel alignment even with a quality jig. You are simply wasting time and introducing potential problems for no reason so I am arguing against using dowels unless your boards are way out of wack, and even then, cauls are easier to use than dowels. Just my opinion though, you can do whatever you want, and offer whatever advice your little heart desires. |
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