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Old January 1st 21, 06:22 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default A waste of time?

On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here.

https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4

I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top.

I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well.

Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength?



I'm real late responding to this question. And I think what I am saying has already been said. But... For strength, long grain glued to log grain is super strong when glued and clamped using yellow glue. No need for additional mechanical fasteners like dowels. For alignment purposes, dowels would help. But I have never used dowels so I am skeptical its very easy to use them for alignment purposes. You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels. If you are that precise with drilling the dowels to make them actually work, why not just use a little of that effort to line up the boards and glue them up right in the first place. I do use biscuits for aligning boards to edge glue.. I guess they add strength too. But who cares since the long grain is super strong when done gluing. But biscuits are super easy to use and line up boards perfectly with no thought or effort. I don't think dowels are as easy to use as biscuits. Which is why biscuits were invented by Lamello I think a while ago. They replace cumbersome dowels for the lining up purposes.

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Old January 1st 21, 06:42 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default A waste of time?

On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 09:22:53 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here.

https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4

I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top.

I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well.

Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength?



I'm real late responding to this question. And I think what I am saying has already been said. But... For strength, long grain glued to log grain is super strong when glued and clamped using yellow glue. No need for additional mechanical fasteners like dowels. For alignment purposes, dowels would help. But I have never used dowels so I am skeptical its very easy to use them for alignment purposes. You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels. If you are that precise with drilling the dowels to make them actually work, why not just use a little of that effort to line up the boards and glue them up right in the first place. I do use biscuits for aligning boards to edge glue. I guess they add strength too. But who cares since the long grain is super strong when done gluing. But biscuits are super easy to use and line up boards perfectly with no thought or effort. I don't think dowels are as easy to use as
biscuits. Which is why biscuits were invented by Lamello I think a while ago. They replace cumbersome dowels for the lining up purposes.


A decent doweling jig handles the alignment. You can buy them for not
a huge amount of money, or make one.
  #23   Report Post  
Old January 1st 21, 09:35 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 14,497
Default A waste of time?

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here.

https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4

I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top.

I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well.

Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength?

I'm real late responding to this question. And I think what I am saying has already been said. But... For strength, long grain glued to log grain is super strong when glued and clamped using yellow glue. No need for additional mechanical fasteners like dowels. For alignment purposes, dowels would help. But I have never used dowels so I am skeptical its very easy to use them for alignment purposes. You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels. If you are that precise with drilling the dowels to make them actually work, why not just use a little of that effort to line up the boards and glue them up right in the first place. I do use biscuits for aligning boards to edge glue. I guess they add strength too. But who cares since the long grain is super strong when done gluing. But biscuits are super easy to use and line up boards perfectly with no thought or effort. I don't think dowels are as easy to use as biscuits. Which is why biscuits were invented by Lamello I think a while ago. They replace cumbersome dowels for the lining up purposes.



"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels."

I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style...

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28

Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself,
the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that
your boards are the same thickness.
  #24   Report Post  
Old January 1st 21, 10:18 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default A waste of time?

On Fri, 1 Jan 2021 12:35:00 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here.

https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4

I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top.

I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well.

Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength?

I'm real late responding to this question. And I think what I am saying has already been said. But... For strength, long grain glued to log grain is super strong when glued and clamped using yellow glue. No need for additional mechanical fasteners like dowels. For alignment purposes, dowels would help. But I have never used dowels so I am skeptical its very easy to use them for alignment purposes. You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels. If you are that precise with drilling the dowels to make them actually work, why not just use a little of that effort to line up the boards and glue them up right in the first place. I do use biscuits for aligning boards to edge glue. I guess they add strength too. But who cares since the long grain is super strong when done gluing. But biscuits are super easy to use and line up boards perfectly with no thought or effort. I don't think dowels are as easy to use as biscuits. Which is

why biscuits were invented by Lamello I think a while ago. They replace cumbersome dowels for the lining up purposes.


"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels."

I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style...

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28

Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself,
the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that
your boards are the same thickness.


....and you index off the same surface.

As mentioned before, I found a biscuit joiner to be absolutely useless
for this purpose. The slot was so sloppy there was no way it would
align the boards.

  #25   Report Post  
Old January 2nd 21, 10:30 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 11,739
Default A waste of time?

On 1/1/2021 2:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:

On Friday, December 18, 2020 at 11:11:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:

It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here.

https://flic.kr/p/2kgvcD4

I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top.

I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well.

Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength?

I'm real late responding to this question. And I think what I am saying has already been said. But... For strength, long grain glued to log grain is super strong when glued and clamped using yellow glue. No need for additional mechanical fasteners like dowels. For alignment purposes, dowels would help. But I have never used dowels so I am skeptical its very easy to use them for alignment purposes. You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels. If you are that precise with drilling the dowels to make them actually work, why not just use a little of that effort to line up the boards and glue them up right in the first place. I do use biscuits for aligning boards to edge glue. I guess they add strength too. But who cares since the long grain is super strong when done gluing. But biscuits are super easy to use and line up boards perfectly with no thought or effort. I don't think dowels are as easy to use as biscuits. Which is why biscuits were invented by Lamello I think a while ago. They replace cumbersome dowels for the lining up purposes.



"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels."

I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style...

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28

Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself,
the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that
your boards are the same thickness.




Well alignment of the mating holes is the issue but there is a jig that
allows you to stack the mating pieces. The jig has two holes, one on
top of the other. Those holes allow for precise alignment of the mating
surfaces. But it is imperative that the stacked boards do not shift at all.


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Old January 3rd 21, 03:46 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 1,231
Default A waste of time?

On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:


"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels."

I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style...

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28

Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself,
the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that
your boards are the same thickness.

I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it
is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible.

Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be),
by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill
precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will
already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems.

There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple
procedure.

My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not
been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
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Old January 3rd 21, 05:38 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default A waste of time?

On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 9:46:59 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:


"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels."

I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style...

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28

Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself,
the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that
your boards are the same thickness.

I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it
is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible.

Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be),
by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill
precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will
already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems.

There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple
procedure.

My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not
been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game.
--


Did you read my complete reply?

I specifically said:

"I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig... "

The only comment I was addressing was this one from russellseaton1:

"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the
holes for the dowels."

For the record: I don't use dowels or biscuits for alignment when gluing up panels.
  #28   Report Post  
Old January 3rd 21, 05:43 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default A waste of time?

On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 9:46:59 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:


"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels."

I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style...

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28

Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself,
the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that
your boards are the same thickness.

I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it
is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible.

Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be),
by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill
precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will
already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems.

There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple
procedure.

My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not
been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game.
--


Did you read my entire response?

I specifically said:

"I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig..."

My response was related only to this statement from russellseaton1:

"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes
for the dowels."

For the record, I do not use dowels or biscuits when when gluing up panels.
  #29   Report Post  
Old January 3rd 21, 08:58 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 1,231
Default A waste of time?

On 1/3/2021 11:38 AM, Dave Marulli wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 9:46:59 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:


"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels."

I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style...

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28

Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself,
the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that
your boards are the same thickness.

I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it
is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible.

Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be),
by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill
precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will
already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems.

There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple
procedure.

My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not
been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game.
--


Did you read my complete reply?

I specifically said:

"I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig... "

The only comment I was addressing was this one from russellseaton1:

"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the
holes for the dowels."

For the record: I don't use dowels or biscuits for alignment when gluing up panels.

I read your reply. I was answering your question of "how hard do you
think it is to align with a self centering jig."

I replied it is not automatic to get perfect dowel alignment even with a
quality jig. You are simply wasting time and introducing potential
problems for no reason so I am arguing against using dowels unless your
boards are way out of wack, and even then, cauls are easier to use than
dowels.

Just my opinion though, you can do whatever you want, and offer whatever
advice your little heart desires.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
  #30   Report Post  
Old January 3rd 21, 09:55 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 2,165
Default A waste of time?

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhOn Sun, 3 Jan 2021 14:58:20 -0500, Jack
wrote:

On 1/3/2021 11:38 AM, Dave Marulli wrote:
On Sunday, January 3, 2021 at 9:46:59 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 1/1/2021 3:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, January 1, 2021 at 12:22:57 PM UTC-5, wrote:

"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the holes for the dowels."

I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig, such as this style...

https://www.amazon.com/Center-Dowel-.../dp/B081RGDJ28

Granted, a biscuit joiner doesn't have to be R&R'd like a doweling jig does, but in and of itself,
the "super super super precise" alignment is handled by the jig itself, assuming of course that
your boards are the same thickness.

I have a high quality doweling jig. It is not automatic however, and it
is not difficult to get things off enough to make alignment impossible.

Assuming your boards are milled flat and square (which they should be),
by the time you set up your jig for each hole perfectly aligned, drill
precise holes in all the boards, cut correct length dowels, I will
already have my boards glued and clamped with no problems.

There is no reason to introduce difficulty with no benefit in a simple
procedure.

My high quality doweling jig is rarely out of the closet, and has not
been used for panel glue ups since I was new at the game.
--


Did you read my complete reply?

I specifically said:

"I'm not arguing for or against using dowels to help with alignment, I'm just wondering how
hard you think it is to align a self-centering dowel jig... "

The only comment I was addressing was this one from russellseaton1:

"You have to be super super super precise aligning the drilling apparatus to make the
holes for the dowels."

For the record: I don't use dowels or biscuits for alignment when gluing up panels.

I read your reply. I was answering your question of "how hard do you
think it is to align with a self centering jig."


You may have read but you didn't comprehend.

I replied it is not automatic to get perfect dowel alignment even with a
quality jig. You are simply wasting time and introducing potential
problems for no reason so I am arguing against using dowels unless your
boards are way out of wack, and even then, cauls are easier to use than
dowels.

Just my opinion though, you can do whatever you want, and offer whatever
advice your little heart desires.



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