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Old October 16th 20, 10:24 PM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.


Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".


Well.... Yes and No. My electric bill last month was $36.55. I think it averages about that year round. Higher in the winter months and lower in the summer months due to lighting mainly. A 50% reduction would mean $18 per month for me. Yearly that would be $216. A nice amount. You could buy a new battery drill maybe. For me the main lights I use are the bathroom, kitchen (old light style), and living room (LED bulbs). Unfortunately the basement shop with the fluorescent wasteful lights are not used all that much each month. So they add $1 to the total bill. Or less. LED would save me 50 cents a month at most. It would take decades and decades to pay for LED in the basement. But if I replaced my kitchen and bathroom light bulbs with LED for $20-30-40, I could pay for them in three months or so. Savings, or reduction in power in this case, is important in the right circumstances. And unimportant in other places. The person who started this thread said he ran his new LED light in the storage room a total of 5 hours in one year. Paying more than double the cost of the cheapo unit (his words) to save 50% power consumption might not make much sense if you only save 10 cents of power each year. Spend money or use technology where it matters. Not where its foolish to do so.





I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.


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Old October 17th 20, 04:29 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:37:57 -0700 (PDT), Bob D
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 7:38:49 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:
Just replaced 2 instant start ballasts and 16 tubes for a client
because all the lights in the office are the same - 2 tube pans in
dropped cielings - $210 in parts at my cost. Asthetics over economics
and I can understand that. To relamp the whole office with LEDs would
cost thousands -(50 units, +/-) and it's a rented office.


I am a fool when it comes to determining value based on cost. When I lit my shop, I wanted the brightest, most even lighting I could install with 5000k color. I selected 4" two tube daylight T5 fixtures. That was a few years back, but I still don't see LED fixtures that will compete with 10,000 lumens per fixture. I've replaced one tube and no fixtures. My shop feels like an operating room that has good light on every surface wall to wall.

Bob

When the ballasts start to fail you will see where replacing
flourescents doesn't make sense.
ANd a 4 foot T5 is optimistically 2900 lumens - nowhere close to
5000. Half that light goes up, requiring a reflector to direct it back
down while a good led light focusses ALL of it's 2000 lumens down
where it does you the most good. I've found replacing 4 tube
luminaires with 2 "tube" LEDs gives better visability.
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Old October 17th 20, 04:51 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".


Well.... Yes and No. My electric bill last month was $36.55. I think it averages about that year round. Higher in the winter months and lower in the summer months due to lighting mainly. A 50% reduction would mean $18 per month for me. Yearly that would be $216. A nice amount. You could buy a new battery drill maybe. For me the main lights I use are the bathroom, kitchen (old light style), and living room (LED bulbs). Unfortunately the basement shop with the fluorescent wasteful lights are not used all that much each month. So they add $1 to the total bill. Or less. LED would save me 50 cents a month at most. It would take decades and decades to pay for LED in the basement. But if I replaced my kitchen and bathroom light bulbs with LED for $20-30-40, I could pay for them in three months or so. Savings, or reduction in power in this case, is important in the right circumstances. And unimportant in other places. The person who started this thread said he ran his new
LED light in the storage room a total of 5 hours in one year. Paying more than double the cost of the cheapo unit (his words) to save 50% power consumption might not make much sense if you only save 10 cents of power each year. Spend money or use technology where it matters. Not where its foolish to do so.

You're assuming that 100% of your power bill is lighting. That would
be quite unusual.
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Old October 17th 20, 04:52 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:12:28 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 10/16/2020 9:35 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.


I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".


Yeah...





I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.


You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.


I discovered the LED florescent replacements a couple of years ago. I
kept having to replace tubes and finally replaced the ballast. AND
STILL had issues.

I went to HD to buy a complete replacement assembly. The sales guy
suggested the LED ballast bypass style. Wow, no more issues.


There are some that go both ways (ballast/replacement and
bypass/120V).
  #25   Report Post  
Old October 17th 20, 04:54 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 4,104
Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 22:21:24 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:


From: "

At the hangar we had all kinds of 2 and 4 tube flourescents - and the
ballasts were starting to fail pretty regularly. We used up all the
spare ballasts we had and most were still T12 - with the remainder T8.
Cheap replacement fixtures cost less than replacement ballasts up here
in Canada - and T8 bulbs retail are 11.99 per pair at Canadian Tire or
Home Despot - regular quick start ballasts are $35 - and single led
units can be bought for around $20 while led replacement "tubes" run
about $9 each on sale..
We pulled all the flourescents and replaced them with LED units.
Using the same number of "tubes", more evenly distributed, the hangar
is MUCH brighter - and the cost was less than replacing ballasts and
re-tubing,t12 4 footers are $10.98 Canadian per pair at Home Despot
and T12 ballasts are $24.59 each.
Upgrading to T8 the ballast are $36, plus or minus a dime or two, the
tubes $8 each, plus or minus a dime, whether bought sigly or in six
packs at the local Home Despot.
At my local wholesaler I can likely get them for about a quarter of a
dollar less - mabybe a buck less in full case lots.

2 light Feit LED units are within a dime of $60.
He picked up a whole carload (Can't remember the brand)(his Sonata)
on sale for $19? each


Now the good part - at the Hangar the cost of electricty is a certain
amount up to a certain amount of power per month - and it goes up
SIGNIFICANTLY if you go over - and not just for the overage, but for
the full consumption.
Relamping the hangar reduced consumption by 50% overall - and
lighting is not the ONLY power usage. He can use the welder
judiciously now without jumping to the higher power rate.
Turns out it was a double or triple win - less power, less cost than
re-ballasting and re-tubing, and more light


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Old October 17th 20, 04:56 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 4,104
Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:21:21 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd
wrote:

On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.


Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption. I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture. With screw-in LED bulbs, you replace both a power supply and an LED, AND
a heatsink, instead of just a glass tube/bulb with fittings on the end(s); replacing the light
emitters is going to be easier on the wallet if you go fluorescent.

Case-lot purchases of fluorescent tubes are $2 each, but if you just buy a couple off-the-shelf,
it's closer to $5 each. I've replaced some T12 ballast/tube fixtures with T8 electronic
ballast and T8 tubes; less mercury in those smaller tubes, and quite bright. The sheet metal
of the fixtures might be 40 years old.

Things are obviously cheaper south of the border - and the prices I
quotes are less the 13% tax - - - which you can get back if it is for
certain business uses.
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Old October 17th 20, 05:03 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:12:28 -0500, Leon [email protected]
wrote:

On 10/16/2020 9:35 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.


I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".


Yeah...





I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.


You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.


I discovered the LED florescent replacements a couple of years ago. I
kept having to replace tubes and finally replaced the ballast. AND
STILL had issues.

I went to HD to buy a complete replacement assembly. The sales guy
suggested the LED ballast bypass style. Wow, no more issues.

My experience with the "low mercury" flourescents has been DISMAL.
The Alto tubes with the green ends were a real crapshoot - about half
failed in under 200 hours - about half of them significantly less.
Half or more of the remaining lasted over 5000 (about 2700 hours per
year, more or less - lasting more than 2 years)
A LED tube should AVERAGE 10,000 hours or more (I haven't had any
fail in over 2 years other than one small batch that were DOA.(and
returned for full credit - an advantage of dealing locally)
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Old October 17th 20, 05:19 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:29:55 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:

ANd a 4 foot T5 is optimistically 2900 lumens - nowhere close to
5000.


Sorry, I wrote the wrong information. My bulbs are T5 HO, which are 5000 lumens per tube.

BobD
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Old October 17th 20, 05:23 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Posts: 4,104
Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:24:06 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
whit3rd writes:
On Thursday, October 15, 2020 at 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I just use 4 foot fluorescent lights in my shop area. I have 37 of the two bulb 4 foot fixtures in the basement. Once in a great while the fluorescent bulbs die. But its rare. And the bulbs cost $1 each or something like that.

Yep, fluorescent is still a winner on parts/availability/maturity, and was never far
behind LED in power consumption.

I would argue that a 50% reduction in power consumption between fluorescent and
LED does indicate that fluorescent is "far behind LED in power consumption".


Well.... Yes and No. My electric bill last month was $36.55. I think it averages about that year round. Higher in the winter months and lower in the summer months due to lighting mainly. A 50% reduction would mean $18 per month for me. Yearly that would be $216. A nice amount. You could buy a new battery drill maybe. For me the main lights I use are the bathroom, kitchen (old light style), and living room (LED bulbs). Unfortunately the basement shop with the fluorescent wasteful lights are not used all that much each month. So they add $1 to the total bill. Or less. LED would save me 50 cents a month at most. It would take decades and decades to pay for LED in the basement. But if I replaced my kitchen and bathroom light bulbs with LED for $20-30-40, I could pay for them in three months or so. Savings, or reduction in power in this case, is important in the right circumstances. And unimportant in other places. The person who started this thread said he ran his new
LED light in the storage room a total of 5 hours in one year. Paying more than double the cost of the cheapo unit (his words) to save 50% power consumption might not make much sense if you only save 10 cents of power each year. Spend money or use technology where it matters. Not where its foolish to do so.



In most cases half of that bill would still be there if you never
turned the lights on. The "meter fee" or "service fee" is usually at
least $15 , so a 50$ power savings would only save you about $9.00

In a shop that is used every day, or an office, the savings add up
REALLY FAST.

Totally relamping the plant and warehouse, replacing high bay sodium
with LED panels had a payback of less than 3 years - NOT counting what
would have been spent replacing ballasts (and bulbs) over that time
span - and the light is much better - and it doesn't take 3-5 minutes
for the lights to get back to full bright after a power glitch!!!!!!
(when the relamp was done at least 5 ballasts were needing replacement
- at about $150 a unit plus installation and the failure curve was
going up exponentially - likely have needed another 12 in the next
year - and each year folowing???)

Just the labour cost to replace the ballast on the high bay sodiums
was ridiculous - you needed the "girraffe" and the power (277 volt)
had to be shut down, putting the whole place in darkness. The
flourescent panels are all "plug and play"and can be switched out on
the run - keeping a few spares in stock- every failure so far (6 years
now?) has been a failed solder joint on a panel - none has failed a
second time after repair - 3 or 4 lamps were replaced under warranty
- they let us keep all the failed units except one and the maintenance
guy found the fault before tha manufacturer did.
These lights are on 8-10 hours a day, 5 and 6 days a week.



I suspect the various (low-voltage DC, high-voltage AC,
dimmable, not dimmable, flickering, flicker-free, etc.) LED options mean that one
can never re-lamp or re-power a fixture, if a lamp or power brick dies, you need... a new
fixture.

You can buy replacement LED tubes for standard fluorescent fixtures, the tubes
run on line voltage, so you simply rewire the fixture to bypass the ballast.

I've converted a dozen F96T12 two-bulb fixtures with LED tubes, which _are_
easily replaceable.

You can also get LED tubes that are drop-in replacement in standard
48" fixtures using the existing ballast.

  #30   Report Post  
Old October 17th 20, 05:32 AM posted to rec.woodworking
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Default 4 foot LED "shop" lighting

On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 9:29:55 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:

When the ballasts start to fail you will see where replacing
flourescents doesn't make sense.
ANd a 4 foot T5 is optimistically 2900 lumens - nowhere close to
5000. Half that light goes up, requiring a reflector to direct it back
down while a good led light focusses ALL of it's 2000 lumens down
where it does you the most good. I've found replacing 4 tube
luminaires with 2 "tube" LEDs gives better visability.


I don't know what I'll do when things start to fail. When I put the T5 HO's in service, the LED availability and cost was nearly as competitive as it is now. What we don't know is how long will LED fixtures really last. Early LED bulbs had life claims that I think were vapor. I paid very high prices for name brand LED bulbs. Most of them died after two years service. I bought some cheap Chinese LEDs and they lasted 6 months. I've used CREE and Phillips and Home depot bulbs. The home depot bulbs have lasted the best but they are starting to fail after 3 years. None of them have come close to the claimed life. CREE happily replaces their bulbs at no charge with free shipping, but that still doesn't cover the aggravation.

Maybe the LED tubes will hold up better. Let's all check back with each other in five years. One of the things that bugs me about LED bulbs is that they have electronics on board and I suspect that's the weakest link, not the actual LED itself.

Bob


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