Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 09:44:41 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Install outlets where you need them. My garage didn't have built in
lights when I bought it, it had overhead outlets into which were
plugged corded fluorescent fixtures. Made it easy to improve the
lighting.

Extension cords are a temporary measure. Set things up so that you
won't need them for anything that is going to be in place long-term.

On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 5:44:45 AM UTC-4, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper

7' sounds like a dedicated receptacle. I don't know how tall you are, but I
couldn't plug anything into a receptacle placed at 7' without using a device
that creates some distance between the floor and the bottom of my feet.

Perhaps consider placing them at your maximum reach so you can use them for
the random extension cord or tool when you want the cord to come from up
high. They'd still be high enough for any ceiling mounted device like your
air cleaner.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:50:32 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 09:44:41 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Install outlets where you need them. My garage didn't have built in
lights when I bought it, it had overhead outlets into which were
plugged corded fluorescent fixtures. Made it easy to improve the
lighting.

Extension cords are a temporary measure. Set things up so that you
won't need them for anything that is going to be in place long-term.


If you never need/use them it was a waste if time and money. If you
DO need them, it's "a stroke of Genius"
That "stroke of genius" seldom comes at such a low cost - so GO FOR
IT!!!

On 8/16/2020 5:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets on
one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:08:01 -0400, Hawk wrote:

On 8/16/2020 5:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets on
one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

And it might be a good idea to put the high up outlets on their own
circuit or two. Later on you might want to be able to switch them.

On 8/16/2020 5:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper

This is exactly what I plan. I have several fluorescent lights in my
garage for general illumination. I have one directly over my work
bench. It currently is plug into a power strip that can be switched on
or off. When I use the work bench I turn the power switch on to provide
additional illumination on the work bench. The additional light fixture
is not normally on, wasting energy.

Game plan is to put an outlet about 18" from the ceiling. The outlet
would be controlled with a dual outlet/switch in an exiting box that now
only has a dual outlet. If I expand my work area, I would consider
additional area lights over the various tools, that could be turned on
or off as I use the tool.

The power strip will not disappear as it also has my drill press, belt
sander, and band saw plugged into it. Since there is only me I can only
use one at a time, so amp load while important does not come into
question. I also like the redundancy of two switches on my tools.

Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper



Over 48" leaves you room for a piece of plywood, and that's not too far
from the ceiling. Most of mine are at that level.

On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 6:47:58 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:08:01 -0400, Hawk wrote:

On 8/16/2020 5:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets on
one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

And it might be a good idea to put the high up outlets on their own
circuit or two. Later on you might want to be able to switch them.

Why would a switched receptacle require it's own circuit? If you are thinking
about the ease of adding the switch for the entire circuit, sure. Then again,
what are the odds of all of these up-high receptacles ever becoming a single
switched circuit vs. adding switches for individual receptacles? Most likely
case would be a split receptacle or two.

Side note: I put the lights in my shop are on their own circuit. Overkill,
perhaps, but I'll never be left in the dark if a machine trips a breaker.

Clare Snyder wrote in
:


If you never need/use them it was a waste if time and money. If you
DO need them, it's "a stroke of Genius"
That "stroke of genius" seldom comes at such a low cost - so GO FOR
IT!!!

That's a really good argument! I think I will install those outlets up
high.

Puckdropper

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:


7' sounds like a dedicated receptacle. I don't know how tall you are,
but I couldn't plug anything into a receptacle placed at 7' without
using a device that creates some distance between the floor and the
bottom of my feet.

Perhaps consider placing them at your maximum reach so you can use
them for the random extension cord or tool when you want the cord to
come from up high. They'd still be high enough for any ceiling mounted
device like your air cleaner.

Good point, I'll have to figure out what the top of my reach is and set the
high outlets there. I may still need to create vertical separation between
the floor and my shoe soles, but that's only because I have something in
the way.

Puckdropper

J. Clarke wrote in
:

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:08:01 -0400, Hawk wrote:

Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets
on one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

And it might be a good idea to put the high up outlets on their own
circuit or two. Later on you might want to be able to switch them.

That's not a bad idea. If I do the low outlets on one circuit, the mediums
on another, and the highs on a third I should be able to have a load spread
out and a predictable way to tell when I'm using a different breaker.

Puckdorpper

Hawk wrote in :


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets
on one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

Does residential have limits on numbers of outlets on a circuit? I thought
that it didn't.

At any rate, those are good numbers to keep in mind.

Puckdropper

Puckdropper wrote:
Hawk wrote in :


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets
on one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

Does residential have limits on numbers of outlets on a circuit? I thought
that it didn't.

At any rate, those are good numbers to keep in mind.

Puckdropper


In a shop, I think you don't want too many devices on the same run.
I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 5:07:03 PM UTC-5, Hawk wrote:
On 8/16/2020 5:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper

Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets on
one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

Why the limit? I don't think there is anything in NEC to that effect. If the wiring is the right size and has a proper breaker, the circuit is protected regardless of how many outlets are on the circuit.

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 2:32:13 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
Puckdropper wrote:
Hawk wrote in :


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets
on one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

Does residential have limits on numbers of outlets on a circuit? I thought
that it didn't.

At any rate, those are good numbers to keep in mind.

Puckdropper

In a shop, I think you don't want too many devices on the same run.
I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

I used 20 amp even for lighting. I love lots of light.

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 1:41:58 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in
:
7' sounds like a dedicated receptacle. I don't know how tall you are,
but I couldn't plug anything into a receptacle placed at 7' without
using a device that creates some distance between the floor and the
bottom of my feet.

Perhaps consider placing them at your maximum reach so you can use
them for the random extension cord or tool when you want the cord to
come from up high. They'd still be high enough for any ceiling mounted
device like your air cleaner.
Good point, I'll have to figure out what the top of my reach is and set the
high outlets there. I may still need to create vertical separation between
the floor and my shoe soles, but that's only because I have something in
the way.

Puckdropper

When I had my shop wired, I put in some high outlets on the wall and scattered throughout the ceiling. Later I added two Rockler cord reels mounted on the ceiling. One is on the left half of the shop and the other on the right side of the shop. Each is about 10 feet from the nearest wall. Those cord reels get used more than any of my dedicated outlets. I recommend the Rockler reels because they are 12 gauge wiring.

Bob

On Mon, 17 Aug 2020 03:32:09 -0400, Bill wrote:

Puckdropper wrote:
Hawk wrote in :


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets
on one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

Does residential have limits on numbers of outlets on a circuit? I thought
that it didn't.

At any rate, those are good numbers to keep in mind.

Puckdropper


In a shop, I think you don't want too many devices on the same run.
I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

If you know where the stationary tools are going to go, either put a
separate circuit for each tool or if you are going to be the only one
using the shop, a separate circuit for all the tools. Be sure to put
in 220 for any tools that can handle it.

On 8/16/2020 4:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

I think the height issue is up to you and good thoughts...a lot of
opinions on circuits, though, that I don't all agree with.

Unless it is a commercial shop which seems highly unlikely in a garage
shop, the idea of separate circuit for every stationary tool is way
overboard...I went ahead and pulled #10, but all 240V and 120V tool
outlets are on single circuits.

What you want to be certain of is that wiring circuit for lighting is
(a) not tripped by a tool outlet on the same circuit and (b) not all
lighting is on one circuit.

Particularly so if happen to be using the tablesaw or shaper and a bulb
pops and trips a breaker...not good to all of a sudden be in the dark
with a power tool running. Not likely and less so as incandescent bulbs
have almost disappeared, but think ahead just in case.

--

DerbyDad03 writes:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 6:47:58 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:08:01 -0400, Hawk wrote:

On 8/16/2020 5:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets on
one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

And it might be a good idea to put the high up outlets on their own
circuit or two. Later on you might want to be able to switch them.

Why would a switched receptacle require it's own circuit?

They don't, of course. Adding a switch is relatively straightforward,
even after the fact.

I just added some outlets in a narrow garage, at about 6' 6" (just
below the short ceiling). A duplex receptacle with the hot side
cut - the top outlet is switched, the bottom is unswitched; there's
one every 10 feet along the long side of the (40' long) garage,
three #12 THHN conductors in 1/2 EMT, single 20A circuit.

Bill writes:
Puckdropper wrote:
Hawk wrote in :


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets
on one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

Does residential have limits on numbers of outlets on a circuit? I thought
that it didn't.

At any rate, those are good numbers to keep in mind.

Puckdropper


In a shop, I think you don't want too many devices on the same run.

The important consideration is how many devices will be in use
at the same time. If it's a one-man shop, it's unlikely that
you'll have more than a shop-vac and a single power tool (and
perhaps a dust cleaner) energized at the same time.


I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.

On 8/16/2020 9:00 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 6:47:58 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:08:01 -0400, Hawk wrote:

On 8/16/2020 5:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets on
one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

And it might be a good idea to put the high up outlets on their own
circuit or two. Later on you might want to be able to switch them.

Why would a switched receptacle require it's own circuit? If you are thinking
about the ease of adding the switch for the entire circuit, sure. Then again,
what are the odds of all of these up-high receptacles ever becoming a single
switched circuit vs. adding switches for individual receptacles? Most likely
case would be a split receptacle or two.

Side note: I put the lights in my shop are on their own circuit. Overkill,
perhaps, but I'll never be left in the dark if a machine trips a breaker.


Many businesses are wired that way and strictly have receptacle panels
and outlet panels. I would love to do that to my home but too much
involved with rewiring everything.

On 8/17/2020 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
Puckdropper wrote:
Hawk wrote in :


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets
on one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

Does residential have limits on numbers of outlets on a circuit?Â* I
thought
that it didn't.

At any rate, those are good numbers to keep in mind.

Puckdropper


In a shop, I think you don't want too many devices on the same run.
I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Lighting can be on 20 amp or 15 amp circuits, it doesn't mater. What
matters is the wire size. Code requires 12 gauge for 20 and 14 gauge for 15.

On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 10:08:05 PM UTC-4, Hawk wrote:
On 8/16/2020 9:00 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 6:47:58 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:08:01 -0400, Hawk wrote:

On 8/16/2020 5:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets on
one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

And it might be a good idea to put the high up outlets on their own
circuit or two. Later on you might want to be able to switch them.

Why would a switched receptacle require it's own circuit? If you are thinking
about the ease of adding the switch for the entire circuit, sure. Then again,
what are the odds of all of these up-high receptacles ever becoming a single
switched circuit vs. adding switches for individual receptacles? Most likely
case would be a split receptacle or two.

Side note: I put the lights in my shop are on their own circuit. Overkill,
perhaps, but I'll never be left in the dark if a machine trips a breaker.


Many businesses are wired that way and strictly have receptacle panels
and outlet panels. I would love to do that to my home but too much
involved with rewiring everything.

hmmm..."receptacles panels" and "outlet panels"?

Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

Rarely if ever is the full amp rating of the circuit called for for
single machine, so actual will be proportionally less based on actual
current draw of the machine.

But, if have larger planer or TS and a DC or similar, having 30A service
is protection in my case -- I never did actually measure out the
distances from the panel to the area in the barn I set the shop up
in--let's see from across the driveway to the far end corner would be
12 + 18-6 + 30 == ~54. The run back up the far wall would add another
20-8 to the farthest or ~68 ft altogether. All the stationary machines
and the small DC and compressor are 240V except the PM180 planer that's
240V/3PH. It's on the phase converter and back in the other corner of
the barn. I've not yet got around to hooking up the 3PH DC for
it...couldn't decide how wanted to arrange the duct work for permanent
as it's too tall for inside the barn on first floor and been too lazy to
get it up in and rearrange stuff in the loft to put it up there...but
that's a pain for collection/emptying even if convenient to have out of
the way otherwise...

--

On 8/18/2020 9:31 AM, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10.Â* For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

Rarely if ever is the full amp rating of the circuit called for for
single machine, so actual will be proportionally less based on actual
current draw of the machine.

That is, of course, the current is proportionally less than the rated
value by the actual draw of the load(s); the 2% drop distance then is
proportionally longer...

--

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:31:10 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).


I found one calculator that said use 10 AWG at 16' for full 20 amps
at 120V, 1% drop.

What I don't like is that many of the calculators are strictly formula based
and don't factor in "code" in any way. Shorten the length enough and you can
use 14 AWG for a 20 amp draw. You'd think they'd include an "IF" clause that
didn't allow the calculator to go below the minimum gauge allowed based on
the amperage entered.

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 3:04:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:31:10 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

I found one calculator that said use 10 AWG at 16' for full 20 amps
at 120V, 1% drop.

What I don't like is that many of the calculators are strictly formula based
and don't factor in "code" in any way. Shorten the length enough and you can
use 14 AWG for a 20 amp draw. You'd think they'd include an "IF" clause that
didn't allow the calculator to go below the minimum gauge allowed based on
the amperage entered.

Not an electrician and do not play one on TV.
The possible flaw in your argument re 14ga/20amp is (right or wrong, willing to learn) is what happens if a future homeowner decides to extend that circuit w/add'l outlets/load. Does that affect the safety of the installation?
TIA...

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:30:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Welch wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 3:04:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:31:10 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

I found one calculator that said use 10 AWG at 16' for full 20 amps
at 120V, 1% drop.

What I don't like is that many of the calculators are strictly formula based
and don't factor in "code" in any way. Shorten the length enough and you can
use 14 AWG for a 20 amp draw. You'd think they'd include an "IF" clause that
didn't allow the calculator to go below the minimum gauge allowed based on
the amperage entered.

Not an electrician and do not play one on TV.
The possible flaw in your argument re 14ga/20amp is (right or wrong, willing to learn) is what happens if a future homeowner decides to extend that circuit w/add'l outlets/load. Does that affect the safety of the installation?
TIA...

I'm not sure what you mean by "your argument re 14ga/20Amp".

I'd *never* argue for or even suggest using 14 AWG for a 20 amp circuit.
Nowhere in the NEC is that allowed.

I was pointing a *flaw* in some of the calculator that I tried. They appear to
ignore code and return 14 AWG for a "short" run even if the user entered 20 amp
as the maximum draw. I'm saying that the calculators should include limits
and never return a result that would violate code.

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:55:54 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:30:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Welch wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 3:04:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:31:10 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

I found one calculator that said use 10 AWG at 16' for full 20 amps
at 120V, 1% drop.

What I don't like is that many of the calculators are strictly formula based
and don't factor in "code" in any way. Shorten the length enough and you can
use 14 AWG for a 20 amp draw. You'd think they'd include an "IF" clause that
didn't allow the calculator to go below the minimum gauge allowed based on
the amperage entered.

Not an electrician and do not play one on TV.
The possible flaw in your argument re 14ga/20amp is (right or wrong, willing to learn) is what happens if a future homeowner decides to extend that circuit w/add'l outlets/load. Does that affect the safety of the installation?
TIA...
I'm not sure what you mean by "your argument re 14ga/20Amp".

I'd *never* argue for or even suggest using 14 AWG for a 20 amp circuit.
Nowhere in the NEC is that allowed.

I was pointing a *flaw* in some of the calculator that I tried. They appear to
ignore code and return 14 AWG for a "short" run even if the user entered 20 amp
as the maximum draw. I'm saying that the calculators should include limits
and never return a result that would violate code.

Understood, sorry for any misunderstanding...
Thanks

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Brian Welch
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:55:54 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:30:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Welch wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 3:04:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:31:10 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

I found one calculator that said use 10 AWG at 16' for full 20 amps
at 120V, 1% drop.

What I don't like is that many of the calculators are strictly formula based
and don't factor in "code" in any way. Shorten the length enough and you can
use 14 AWG for a 20 amp draw. You'd think they'd include an "IF" clause that
didn't allow the calculator to go below the minimum gauge allowed based on
the amperage entered.

Not an electrician and do not play one on TV.
The possible flaw in your argument re 14ga/20amp is (right or wrong, willing to learn) is what happens if a future homeowner decides to extend that circuit w/add'l outlets/load. Does that affect the safety of the installation?
TIA...
I'm not sure what you mean by "your argument re 14ga/20Amp".

I'd *never* argue for or even suggest using 14 AWG for a 20 amp circuit.
Nowhere in the NEC is that allowed.

I was pointing a *flaw* in some of the calculator that I tried. They appear to
ignore code and return 14 AWG for a "short" run even if the user entered 20 amp
as the maximum draw. I'm saying that the calculators should include limits
and never return a result that would violate code.

Understood, sorry for any misunderstanding...

It really depends on what you're calculating. If you're calculating
6" pigtails for an internal connection, 14 may be fine.

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 8:59:18 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Brian Welch
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:55:54 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:30:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Welch wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 3:04:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:31:10 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

I found one calculator that said use 10 AWG at 16' for full 20 amps
at 120V, 1% drop.

What I don't like is that many of the calculators are strictly formula based
and don't factor in "code" in any way. Shorten the length enough and you can
use 14 AWG for a 20 amp draw. You'd think they'd include an "IF" clause that
didn't allow the calculator to go below the minimum gauge allowed based on
the amperage entered.

Not an electrician and do not play one on TV.
The possible flaw in your argument re 14ga/20amp is (right or wrong, willing to learn) is what happens if a future homeowner decides to extend that circuit w/add'l outlets/load. Does that affect the safety of the installation?
TIA...
I'm not sure what you mean by "your argument re 14ga/20Amp".

I'd *never* argue for or even suggest using 14 AWG for a 20 amp circuit.
Nowhere in the NEC is that allowed.

I was pointing a *flaw* in some of the calculator that I tried. They appear to
ignore code and return 14 AWG for a "short" run even if the user entered 20 amp
as the maximum draw. I'm saying that the calculators should include limits
and never return a result that would violate code.

Understood, sorry for any misunderstanding...

It really depends on what you're calculating. If you're calculating
6" pigtails for an internal connection, 14 may be fine.

This site calculates 14 AWG for a 20 amp circuit up to 56', allowing up to
3% voltage drop.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

The description says "Our calculator yields results that are within code in
most locations however we advise you to check your local electrical code."

Am I wrong that the NEC requires 12 AWG for all circuits protected by a
20 AMP breaker, which I would assume would be the case if you expected
a maximum draw of 20 amps?

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 18:37:45 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 8:59:18 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Brian Welch
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:55:54 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:30:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Welch wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 3:04:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:31:10 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

I found one calculator that said use 10 AWG at 16' for full 20 amps
at 120V, 1% drop.

What I don't like is that many of the calculators are strictly formula based
and don't factor in "code" in any way. Shorten the length enough and you can
use 14 AWG for a 20 amp draw. You'd think they'd include an "IF" clause that
didn't allow the calculator to go below the minimum gauge allowed based on
the amperage entered.

Not an electrician and do not play one on TV.
The possible flaw in your argument re 14ga/20amp is (right or wrong, willing to learn) is what happens if a future homeowner decides to extend that circuit w/add'l outlets/load. Does that affect the safety of the installation?
TIA...
I'm not sure what you mean by "your argument re 14ga/20Amp".

I'd *never* argue for or even suggest using 14 AWG for a 20 amp circuit.
Nowhere in the NEC is that allowed.

I was pointing a *flaw* in some of the calculator that I tried. They appear to
ignore code and return 14 AWG for a "short" run even if the user entered 20 amp
as the maximum draw. I'm saying that the calculators should include limits
and never return a result that would violate code.

Understood, sorry for any misunderstanding...

It really depends on what you're calculating. If you're calculating
6" pigtails for an internal connection, 14 may be fine.

This site calculates 14 AWG for a 20 amp circuit up to 56', allowing up to
3% voltage drop.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

The description says "Our calculator yields results that are within code in
most locations however we advise you to check your local electrical code."

Am I wrong that the NEC requires 12 AWG for all circuits protected by a
20 AMP breaker, which I would assume would be the case if you expected
a maximum draw of 20 amps?


Thermal effects (wire expanding and contracting) would be higher
meaning you would check the connections and wires might be lose. That
can cause arcing which causes fires.

You would not be wrong.

On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Brian Welch
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:55:54 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:30:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Welch wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 3:04:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:31:10 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

I found one calculator that said use 10 AWG at 16' for full 20 amps
at 120V, 1% drop.

What I don't like is that many of the calculators are strictly formula based
and don't factor in "code" in any way. Shorten the length enough and you can
use 14 AWG for a 20 amp draw. You'd think they'd include an "IF" clause that
didn't allow the calculator to go below the minimum gauge allowed based on
the amperage entered.

Not an electrician and do not play one on TV.
The possible flaw in your argument re 14ga/20amp is (right or wrong, willing to learn) is what happens if a future homeowner decides to extend that circuit w/add'l outlets/load. Does that affect the safety of the installation?
TIA...
I'm not sure what you mean by "your argument re 14ga/20Amp".

I'd *never* argue for or even suggest using 14 AWG for a 20 amp circuit.
Nowhere in the NEC is that allowed.

I was pointing a *flaw* in some of the calculator that I tried. They appear to
ignore code and return 14 AWG for a "short" run even if the user entered 20 amp
as the maximum draw. I'm saying that the calculators should include limits
and never return a result that would violate code.

Understood, sorry for any misunderstanding...
Thanks
The calculator is used for a lot more than
residential/commercial/institutional wiring - a lot of applications
where "code" is totally irellevent

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 9:43:49 PM UTC-4, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Tue, 18 Aug 2020 17:33:19 -0700 (PDT), Brian Welch
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:55:54 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 4:30:20 PM UTC-4, Brian Welch wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 3:04:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, August 18, 2020 at 10:31:10 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 8/17/2020 9:27 PM, Bill wrote:
Scott Lurndal wrote:
Bill writes:

I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

Or even AWG 10 for the 20A circuits if the run is long enough.


Just curious, what length (in feet) would justify that?

Surprisingly short if use full current ratings -- 20A @ 120V is 2% drop
at 36 ft for #12, 57 ft for #10. For 240V, double the distance (altho
rounding the numbers in the table are 71/113 instead of 72/114).

I found one calculator that said use 10 AWG at 16' for full 20 amps
at 120V, 1% drop.

What I don't like is that many of the calculators are strictly formula based
and don't factor in "code" in any way. Shorten the length enough and you can
use 14 AWG for a 20 amp draw. You'd think they'd include an "IF" clause that
didn't allow the calculator to go below the minimum gauge allowed based on
the amperage entered.

Not an electrician and do not play one on TV.
The possible flaw in your argument re 14ga/20amp is (right or wrong, willing to learn) is what happens if a future homeowner decides to extend that circuit w/add'l outlets/load. Does that affect the safety of the installation?
TIA...
I'm not sure what you mean by "your argument re 14ga/20Amp".

I'd *never* argue for or even suggest using 14 AWG for a 20 amp circuit.
Nowhere in the NEC is that allowed.

I was pointing a *flaw* in some of the calculator that I tried. They appear to
ignore code and return 14 AWG for a "short" run even if the user entered 20 amp
as the maximum draw. I'm saying that the calculators should include limits
and never return a result that would violate code.

Understood, sorry for any misunderstanding...
Thanks
The calculator is used for a lot more than
residential/commercial/institutional wiring - a lot of applications
where "code" is totally irellevent

"The" calculator? What is "the" calculator that you are referring to?

I linked to a site that specifically says that their results "are within
code in most locations".

It also says that a 56' 120V, 20 amp circuit can be run with 14 AWG. Based
on their "within code" statement, can you explain why 14 AWG would be a valid
result?

On 8/17/2020 10:22 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, August 17, 2020 at 10:08:05 PM UTC-4, Hawk wrote:
On 8/16/2020 9:00 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, August 16, 2020 at 6:47:58 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:08:01 -0400, Hawk wrote:

On 8/16/2020 5:44 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
Outlets are cheap, but time is more expensive. I'm thinking about putting
a few outlets up high, about 7' on the walls of my garage shop. This is
just for the air cleaner or whatever random thing needs to be plugged in up
there. Am I just wasting time by installing outlets at that height?

Naturally, I'm going to do quite a few at 54" and 16", but it's the ones up
high I'm wondering about.

Puckdropper


Whatever works for you but just remember not to put too many outlets on
one circuit. Up to 8 on 15 amps and 10 on 20 amp.

And it might be a good idea to put the high up outlets on their own
circuit or two. Later on you might want to be able to switch them.

Why would a switched receptacle require it's own circuit? If you are thinking
about the ease of adding the switch for the entire circuit, sure. Then again,
what are the odds of all of these up-high receptacles ever becoming a single
switched circuit vs. adding switches for individual receptacles? Most likely
case would be a split receptacle or two.

Side note: I put the lights in my shop are on their own circuit. Overkill,
perhaps, but I'll never be left in the dark if a machine trips a breaker.


Many businesses are wired that way and strictly have receptacle panels
and outlet panels. I would love to do that to my home but too much
involved with rewiring everything.

hmmm..."receptacles panels" and "outlet panels"?


Oops....my brain obviously needs to be rewired also.

Receptacle panels and lighting panels.

On 8/17/2020 3:32 AM, Bill wrote:
0
In a shop, I think you don't want too many devices on the same run.
I think it goes without saying that you should be running 20 amp
circuits (12 gauge wire), doesn't it? Use 15 amp for the lighting.

For sure you want your air compressor and dust collection on separate
circuits. Rare a home shop runs two large tools at once, but, it's
common to run dust collector and a large tool together, and, if your air
compressor happens to kick on you could easily trip the breaker. Of
course lights should be separate as well, preferably two different
circuits.

I have 8 large tools on one 20 amp circuit and never once had a problem.
Air compressor, Dust collection and Planer are on separate circuits.
Planer is 240 otherwise it would be 9th on my list. Naturally this would
not be cool in a multi-user commercial shop.
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

On 8/20/2020 8:09 AM, Jack wrote:
....

I have 8 large tools on one 20 amp circuit and never once had a problem.
Â*Air compressor, Dust collection and Planer are on separate circuits.
Planer is 240 otherwise it would be 9th on my list. Naturally this would
not be cool in a multi-user commercial shop.

Surely all (or almost all) of those "large tools" are dual-voltage
motors. Why wouldn't you switch them all over to 240V?

My key item for stationary tools is they all be on magnetic starters so
won't restart if for any reason there is a power interruption.

--

On 8/20/2020 10:04 AM, dpb wrote:
On 8/20/2020 8:09 AM, Jack wrote:
...

I have 8 large tools on one 20 amp circuit and never once had a
problem. Air compressor, Dust collection and Planer are on separate
circuits. Planer is 240 otherwise it would be 9th on my list.
Naturally this would not be cool in a multi-user commercial shop.

Surely all (or almost all) of those "large tools" are dual-voltage
motors. Why wouldn't you switch them all over to 240V?

Most of my stationary tools have been running perfectly fine for almost
70 years. Most of them are 1 hp or less, so no, they don't all have
that option. Table saw does have the option and I'd thought about
changing over to 240 many times but just never got around toit.
Probably because the reward/effort didn't motivate me enough.

My key item for stationary tools is they all be on magnetic starters so
won't restart if for any reason there is a power interruption.

When I bought my used shaper, it had those big red/green buttons that
looked like those on the magnetic switches. I assumed it was a magnetic
switch. One day I lost power and when it came back on, so did the
shaper. That was the only time in my lifetime that happened to me, and
it wouldn't have happened then if I knew the switch was not a mag
switch. My newest tool is my planer, and it came with a mag switch,
otherwise, I'm on my own to switch off power to all my tools.

So far, other than that one event, I'm doing ok. I'd say it's a good
idea, but not a "key" item, at least not for me. If it was, I'da
"switched" all the switches long ago:-)

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.