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Dan Cullimore
 
Posts: n/a
Default Craftsman TS rebuild

I've a couple of older (40-50 yrs) Craftsman contractor's saws, one of
which I have been using for a couple of years with few complaints
(after installing new arbor bearings, machined pulleys, link belt,
custom extensions, and a decent fence). However, I am not pleased
with the legs the thing sits on. The way the saw is attached allows
for a lot of wobble on shut down/wind down. So I'm gonna build some
new legs, and am hoping to find a way to make the box itself stiffer
(the screw for the arbor tilt tends to distort the sheet metal and I
don't trust it to keep a set). I've also been thinking of trying to
mount the motor so that it hangs below the table (if I can get enough
swing for the tilt), instead of hangin' off the back. Anyone have
experience with these kind of modifications, or
suggestions/warnings/incantations I should heed (short of shelling out
for a new saw--that's not in the budget)? I have some steel, and a
friend who welds (a future skill).

BTW--I'm an inveterate tinkerer: if I can build it with scrap I
couldn't be happier! (Does that make me a cheap *******? g)

Dan
  #2   Report Post  
Unisaw A100
 
Posts: n/a
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Dan Cullimore wrote:
I've also been thinking of trying to
mount the motor so that it hangs below the table (if I can get enough
swing for the tilt), instead of hangin' off the back. Anyone have
experience with these kind of modifications, or
suggestions/warnings/incantations I should heed (short of shelling out
for a new saw--that's not in the budget)? I have some steel, and a
friend who welds (a future skill).


It has been done (commercially) but in those applications
the mount was shoved way up inside the saw cabinet close to
the arbor. I would mock the whole thing up in wood first.
In my head and with my limited arm chair injineering I'm not
seeing it being too successful but you never know.

BTW--I'm an inveterate tinkerer: if I can build it with scrap I
couldn't be happier! (Does that make me a cheap *******? g)


No. That makes you a woodworker.

UA100, who, like all other woodworkers, is also a cheap
bahstad...
  #3   Report Post  
vmtw
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(Dan Cullimore) wrote in message . com...
I've a couple of older (40-50 yrs) Craftsman contractor's saws, one of
which I have been using for a couple of years with few complaints
(after installing new arbor bearings, machined pulleys, link belt,
custom extensions, and a decent fence). However, I am not pleased
with the legs the thing sits on. The way the saw is attached allows
for a lot of wobble on shut down/wind down. So I'm gonna build some
new legs, and am hoping to find a way to make the box itself stiffer
(the screw for the arbor tilt tends to distort the sheet metal and I
don't trust it to keep a set). I've also been thinking of trying to
mount the motor so that it hangs below the table (if I can get enough
swing for the tilt), instead of hangin' off the back. Anyone have
experience with these kind of modifications, or
suggestions/warnings/incantations I should heed (short of shelling out
for a new saw--that's not in the budget)? I have some steel, and a
friend who welds (a future skill).

BTW--I'm an inveterate tinkerer: if I can build it with scrap I
couldn't be happier! (Does that make me a cheap *******? g)

Dan

This is a good link to help you do what you want to do.
http://www.woodbutcher.net/craftts.htm
I have a 60's era Craftsman 10" contractors saw that I inherited from
my Grandfather. The sears fence was no good so I replaced it with a
30" Delta Uni-fence. I also put the Delta overhead guard on it. I
also mounted the saw on a big heavy plywood cabinet that I built. I
put a link-belt on the saw and this made a HUGE difference. I also am
using a thin kerf WWII saw blade. All of these up-grades could be
moved to another saw, if you ever wanted a bigger saw in the future.
I am real happy with this saw, and dont see a need to change at this
time. I may get a cabinet saw someday, but I will always keep this
saw.
Scott
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Dan Cullimore
 
Posts: n/a
Default

(vmtw) wrote in message om...
snipping old stuff
This is a good link to help you do what you want to do.
http://www.woodbutcher.net/craftts.htm
snipped
Scott


Thanks, Scott. I enjoyed Rod's philosophy about saws most of all, as
it confirms the assumptions I've made. When I get to build the
climate controlled shop I want I'll get a "real" saw. In the mean
time (and probably for some time to come) I'll be quite happy with
this old "crapsman" that cuts boards straight and true as I need.

I've already done most of the retrofits Peterson recommends (not the
PALS yet, but it's on my list; a Forrest blade is still a dreamed-for
purchase, too).

What I really need is advice on the construction of legs, ways to make
the short metal cabinet that came with the saw more rigid, and moving
the motor into position below the arbor/trunion/table assembly. I do
plan to make a mock-up of these retrofits, but would like to hear from
anyone else who has tried them, especically the last.

I'd even appreciate someone talking me out of it. My reasoning about
moving the motor is not at all firm, just a thought that the saw might
suffer fewer stresses were the motor not hangin' out the ass. I know
most cabinet saws have the motor below the table/trunion assembly, and
can't see the reason contractor's saws were built differ'ntly, except
to make them portable, which mine is not nor will be. (If I ever need
a portable table saw, I'll buy one of those little guys with the
plastic body!)

Thanks to the comments so far. I'll keep (dare I say it?) "trolling"
for more experience.

Dan
  #5   Report Post  
Charlie Self
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dan Cullimore asks:

What I really need is advice on the construction of legs, ways to make
the short metal cabinet that came with the saw more rigid, and moving
the motor into position below the arbor/trunion/table assembly. I do
plan to make a mock-up of these retrofits, but would like to hear from
anyone else who has tried them, especically the last.

I'd even appreciate someone talking me out of it. My reasoning about
moving the motor is not at all firm, just a thought that the saw might
suffer fewer stresses were the motor not hangin' out the ass. I know
most cabinet saws have the motor below the table/trunion assembly, and
can't see the reason contractor's saws were built differ'ntly, except
to make them portable, which mine is not nor will be.


I suggest the motor hanger design handles the stresses quite well: when was the
last time you heard of a contractor's saws cabinet or table failing?

Consider, too, that you'll have a choice of making modifications to that
already flimsy cabinet if you place the motor inside. The motor has to have
some place to go when you tilt the arbor assembly, which is the reason it is
hanging out the back on ligher duty saws. Bring it back inside and you need a
motor cover to one side or the other (depending on tilt: probably to the left
on your saw).

If it was me, I'd build a box stand (cabinet in other words) to set the saw on,
add some storage in the form of a drawer or two and a shelf, bolt the cabinet
that exists to that, and stick with what I've got otherwise.

Charlie Self
"A judge is a law student who marks his own examination papers." H. L. Mencken


  #6   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dan Cullimore" wrote in message
om...
(vmtw) wrote in message

om...
snipping old stuff
This is a good link to help you do what you want to do.
http://www.woodbutcher.net/craftts.htm
snipped
Scott


Thanks, Scott. I enjoyed Rod's philosophy about saws most of all, as
it confirms the assumptions I've made. When I get to build the
climate controlled shop I want I'll get a "real" saw. In the mean
time (and probably for some time to come) I'll be quite happy with
this old "crapsman" that cuts boards straight and true as I need.


With all due respect to Rod's philosophy, a saw that cuts straight and true
is a real saw. Many a Craftsman Model 100 has long served its operator well
over many a year. Wanting a different saw is one thing, but finding
something remarkably better in another saw is something entirely different.
Don't sell your Craftsman short - the old ones are good saws. Very good
saws. They are very stable, easy to adjust (although you'll only have to
adjust it once) and with a good fence they are very accurate. Again, with
the caveat that sometimes "wanting" something is plenty justification
enough, do not expect that any "real" saw is going to make a better
woodworker out of you than an old Craftsman - the true measure is in the guy
behind the saw, not the saw.


I've already done most of the retrofits Peterson recommends (not the
PALS yet, but it's on my list; a Forrest blade is still a dreamed-for
purchase, too).


My recommendation is to forget the PALS. Your Craftsman will adjust to
within .001 without them, and after you get it adjusted it's all set unless
you drive your car into the side of it. Setting yours up as it is should
not take more than an hour of your time. So - what's the need for add ons?


I'd even appreciate someone talking me out of it. My reasoning about
moving the motor is not at all firm, just a thought that the saw might
suffer fewer stresses were the motor not hangin' out the ass. I know
most cabinet saws have the motor below the table/trunion assembly, and
can't see the reason contractor's saws were built differ'ntly, except
to make them portable, which mine is not nor will be. (If I ever need
a portable table saw, I'll buy one of those little guys with the
plastic body!)


I think you're worrying about things that time has proven there is no need
to worry about. These saws are still in use reliably some 30 or 40 years
after they were manufactured. Do you really expect a design flaw to show up
now? The saw does not suffer stresses from the rear mounted mouter. That
weight and the stresses associated with it are carried by the stand that the
saw is mounted to. Just go ahead and align the saw and have some fun with
it. Unless you are really talented with this type of thing - and it does
not sound like this is your forte based on your questions, then you are more
likely to create a bigger problem with any modifications you make than any
problem you fear might pop up now.

Now, go make some sawdust...

--

-Mike-




  #7   Report Post  
Mike Hide
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I gave my sears table saw away many years ago but if I remember correctly
the motor was hung on the back and it,s weight used to tension the belt.

I installed a bigger motor on mine,which was longer , this require a hole in
the outfeed table for the motor when fully tilted to provide clearance .

I see no reason why mounting it under the table provided you buid in some
way of tensioning the belt. As the motor pulley is alligned with the Arbor
pulley just make sure the motor pulley when tilted is closest to the
underside of the of the table and not the end of the drive motor, in may
involve changing the motor rotation [or am I crazy]......mjh

--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...
Dan Cullimore wrote:
I've also been thinking of trying to
mount the motor so that it hangs below the table (if I can get enough
swing for the tilt), instead of hangin' off the back. Anyone have
experience with these kind of modifications, or
suggestions/warnings/incantations I should heed (short of shelling out
for a new saw--that's not in the budget)? I have some steel, and a
friend who welds (a future skill).


It has been done (commercially) but in those applications
the mount was shoved way up inside the saw cabinet close to
the arbor. I would mock the whole thing up in wood first.
In my head and with my limited arm chair injineering I'm not
seeing it being too successful but you never know.

BTW--I'm an inveterate tinkerer: if I can build it with scrap I
couldn't be happier! (Does that make me a cheap *******? g)


No. That makes you a woodworker.

UA100, who, like all other woodworkers, is also a cheap
bahstad...


  #8   Report Post  
Dan Cullimore
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message k.net...
"Dan Cullimore" wrote: snip When I get to build the
climate controlled shop I want I'll get a "real" saw. snip

Mike Marlow responded:
With all due respect to Rod's philosophy, a saw that cuts straight and true
is a real saw. snip


Mike, this "'real' saw" is not a quote from Rod, but is my poor
(perhaps just misunderstood) attempt at snob-snubbing humor. Rod's
philosopy, and mine, don't differ from your well reasoned response.

I've already done most of the retrofits Peterson recommends (not the
PALS yet, but it's on my list; a Forrest blade is still a dreamed-for
purchase, too).


My recommendation is to forget the PALS. Your Craftsman will adjust to
within .001 without them, and after you get it adjusted it's all set unless
you drive your car into the side of it. Setting yours up as it is should
not take more than an hour of your time. So - what's the need for add ons?


I'll take this under advisement.

I'd even appreciate someone talking me out of it. My reasoning about
moving the motor is not at all firm, just a thought that the saw might
suffer fewer stresses were the motor not hangin' out the ass. I know
most cabinet saws have the motor below the table/trunion assembly, and
can't see the reason contractor's saws were built differ'ntly, except
to make them portable, which mine is not nor will be. (If I ever need
a portable table saw, I'll buy one of those little guys with the
plastic body!)


I think you're worrying about things that time has proven there is no need
to worry about. These saws are still in use reliably some 30 or 40 years
after they were manufactured. Do you really expect a design flaw to show up
now? The saw does not suffer stresses from the rear mounted mouter. That
weight and the stresses associated with it are carried by the stand that the
saw is mounted to. Just go ahead and align the saw and have some fun with
it. Unless you are really talented with this type of thing - and it does
not sound like this is your forte based on your questions, then you are more
likely to create a bigger problem with any modifications you make than any
problem you fear might pop up now.

Now, go make some sawdust...


Good points. I have aligned the saw; and I enjoy making sawdust, even
to some reasonable degree of tolerance. My worry is the amount of
shake I get at shut down--I'm trying to minimize the dance the saw
does (it doesn't really shuffle across the floor, just looks like it
wants to).

Do you really expect a design flaw to show up
now? The saw does not suffer stresses from the rear mounted mouter.


Maybe. And maybe. Given all the bad press about "crapsman" tools, I
do expect some of it to be valid. I'm not expecting cabinet saw
sophistication, but I do want to address my saw's shaking.

Unless you are really talented with this type of thing - and it does
not sound like this is your forte based on your questions, then you are more
likely to create a bigger problem with any modifications you make than any
problem you fear might pop up now.


That's why I'm asking; BTW, I have found very few things I can't learn
to do, often well, even if I stumble occasionally. But thanks for the
cautionary statements; I need to hear the down side. Now, do you have
any experience on making the saw settle more gently into "off"?
Someone here (sorry, I just read it but don't remember who) suggested
building a cabinet on which to bolt the saw. That sounds like the
kind of advice I need.
  #9   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dan Cullimore" wrote in message
om...
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message

k.net...
"Dan Cullimore" wrote: snip When I get to build

the
climate controlled shop I want I'll get a "real" saw. snip

Mike Marlow responded:
With all due respect to Rod's philosophy, a saw that cuts straight and

true
is a real saw. snip


Mike, this "'real' saw" is not a quote from Rod, but is my poor
(perhaps just misunderstood) attempt at snob-snubbing humor. Rod's
philosopy, and mine, don't differ from your well reasoned response.


I'll have to take the responsibility for the poorly phrased senetence. I
too, had read Rod's web site and don't take exception with his advice nor
his philosophy at large. I found it to be a helpful web site. My statement
was an attempt to express that while speaking to the phrase "real saw",
which I suspected you uses lightly, but which caught my eye all the same. I
should probably have seperated the two thoughts for clairity, but I opted
for an "efficient" one-sentence-does-it-all type of thing and I think I did
you both a disservice. My apologies for that.



I'd even appreciate someone talking me out of it. My reasoning about
moving the motor is not at all firm, just a thought that the saw might
suffer fewer stresses were the motor not hangin' out the ass. I know
most cabinet saws have the motor below the table/trunion assembly, and
can't see the reason contractor's saws were built differ'ntly, except
to make them portable, which mine is not nor will be. (If I ever need
a portable table saw, I'll buy one of those little guys with the
plastic body!)


I think you're worrying about things that time has proven there is no

need
to worry about. These saws are still in use reliably some 30 or 40

years
after they were manufactured. Do you really expect a design flaw to

show up
now? The saw does not suffer stresses from the rear mounted mouter.

That
weight and the stresses associated with it are carried by the stand that

the
saw is mounted to. Just go ahead and align the saw and have some fun

with
it. Unless you are really talented with this type of thing - and it

does
not sound like this is your forte based on your questions, then you are

more
likely to create a bigger problem with any modifications you make than

any
problem you fear might pop up now.

Now, go make some sawdust...


Good points. I have aligned the saw; and I enjoy making sawdust, even
to some reasonable degree of tolerance. My worry is the amount of
shake I get at shut down--I'm trying to minimize the dance the saw
does (it doesn't really shuffle across the floor, just looks like it
wants to).


Others have stated that the link belts and new pulleys reduce shake. I've
never used one, so I can't comment on that. Some motors do create more
shake than others on start up and shut down and those who know motors better
than I can probably tell us both why that is, though it seems to be related
to the way they ramp up and down.

The little 8" Craftsman that I posted a comment about the other night (was
my Dad's and now belongs to a friend) used to jump pretty hard on start up
and shutdown. We were able to reduce that to the point that a nickel would
stand on edge throughout the startup and shutdown process, just by building
a decent base for it. That base is nothing fancy at all. It's a 2x4 leg
assembly, with 2x4 bands around the legs at about 6" from the floor, and
again at the top. We used 1/2" plywood for the top of the base because we
had it, but other materials could have worked just as good. We used two
carriage bolts in each end of the long bands that run between the front legs
and the back legs and we nailed the end bands on. The whole thing is not as
heavy as you might think but it is very stable. Make sure your saw itself
is well secured to the top of your stand. You should be comfortable jumping
right up on your tablesaw to change a light bulb or to get down one of the
whachermakallits that you stash way up on the top shelf 'cause you just
never use them that much, without worry about it being rickity.

The stand I built for my 10" model 100 is essentially the same thing, only
sized a little bigger for my saw, and I used 3/4" plywood for the top of the
stand. Otherwise, same principle.


Do you really expect a design flaw to show up
now? The saw does not suffer stresses from the rear mounted mouter.


Maybe. And maybe. Given all the bad press about "crapsman" tools, I
do expect some of it to be valid. I'm not expecting cabinet saw
sophistication, but I do want to address my saw's shaking.


That's really the reason that I find myself getting (too) deeply into these
threads. As I said in another post, I'm no Craftsman apologist, and I'm the
first to bitch about some of the absolute junk they sell (routers), but some
of the stuff they've sold over the years... and maybe by the looks of it,
some of the stuff they're stepping up to these days, is really quality
stuff. It is popular here to bash Craftsman in sort of a snobbish way and
while some of their junk rightly deserves that treatment, other products
just don't. The problem is that the bashing takes on a life of its own and
folks like yourself start to wonder - based on the bashing, if they really
have problems and start thinking about spending large sums of money that
they really don't need to spend.

What I find amusing is the folks who will hammer on Craftsman about the
idiosyncracies of tuning their saws (which are really minor things), yet
they will be somewhat proud of how difficult it is to set up a Griz or a
Delta or a whatever. The idiosyncracies of a machine that costs 10 times
more seem to be a badge of honor. In reality, you should expect cabinet saw
performance out of your tablesaw. At the saw level - excluding things like
outfeed size, etc., there is nothing in a well set up tablesaw like yours
that suffers inadequacy compared to a good cabinet saw of similar size and
HP.

All that having been said - trash the fence system that came with your saw.
I use an Align-A-Rip 24x24 and it's as accurate and as easy to use as it
gets. I've used Beys systems, Jet, etc. in the past and I've nothing bad to
say about them, but the Align-A-Rip was a hell of a lot cheaper and is a top
notch system.


Unless you are really talented with this type of thing - and it does
not sound like this is your forte based on your questions, then you are

more
likely to create a bigger problem with any modifications you make than

any
problem you fear might pop up now.


That's why I'm asking; BTW, I have found very few things I can't learn
to do, often well, even if I stumble occasionally. But thanks for the
cautionary statements; I need to hear the down side. Now, do you have
any experience on making the saw settle more gently into "off"?
Someone here (sorry, I just read it but don't remember who) suggested
building a cabinet on which to bolt the saw. That sounds like the
kind of advice I need.


That's pretty much how I am. I didn't mean to sound condescending with what
I said, it's just that a newsgroup post does not really give you a very good
picture of what a person is capable of. Definitely, go for a good solid
base for your saw. Build it, don't buy it. Use cherry, and stain it a real
pretty color...

--

-Mike-



  #10   Report Post  
Dan Cullimore
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mike Marlow" wrote in message link.net...
snipping
I'll have to take the responsibility for the poorly phrased senetence. I
too, had read Rod's web site and don't take exception with his advice nor
his philosophy at large. I found it to be a helpful web site. My statement
was an attempt to express that while speaking to the phrase "real saw",
which I suspected you uses lightly, but which caught my eye all the same. I
should probably have seperated the two thoughts for clairity, but I opted
for an "efficient" one-sentence-does-it-all type of thing and I think I did
you both a disservice. My apologies for that.


No prob.

Others have stated that the link belts and new pulleys reduce shake. I've
never used one, so I can't comment on that. Some motors do create more
shake than others on start up and shut down and those who know motors better
than I can probably tell us both why that is, though it seems to be related
to the way they ramp up and down.


Got a link belt and one machined pully on the saw arbor; need one for
the motor. They did (do) make a difference. I've considered a bigger
hp motor--one reason for my initial query being that I anticipate more
jitter on shut-down with more hp.

The little 8" Craftsman that I posted a comment about the other night (was
my Dad's and now belongs to a friend) used to jump pretty hard on start up
and shutdown. We were able to reduce that to the point that a nickel would
stand on edge throughout the startup and shutdown process, just by building
a decent base for it. That base is nothing fancy at all. It's a 2x4 leg
assembly, with 2x4 bands around the legs at about 6" from the floor, and
again at the top. We used 1/2" plywood for the top of the base because we
had it, but other materials could have worked just as good. We used two
carriage bolts in each end of the long bands that run between the front legs
and the back legs and we nailed the end bands on. The whole thing is not as
heavy as you might think but it is very stable. Make sure your saw itself
is well secured to the top of your stand. You should be comfortable jumping
right up on your tablesaw to change a light bulb or to get down one of the
whachermakallits that you stash way up on the top shelf 'cause you just
never use them that much, without worry about it being rickity.

The stand I built for my 10" model 100 is essentially the same thing, only
sized a little bigger for my saw, and I used 3/4" plywood for the top of the
stand. Otherwise, same principle.


I really appreciate this example. It demostrates a simple solution to
the problem. I can get carried away with my Rube Goldberg notions and
miss the simple fix. Thanks for the insight.

All that having been said - trash the fence system that came with your saw.
I use an Align-A-Rip 24x24 and it's as accurate and as easy to use as it
gets.


I like this fence, too! Got it just after I got the saw. I've not
used other after-market setups, but certainly couldn't justify the
expense given the performance of this one.

Definitely, go for a good solid
base for your saw. Build it, don't buy it. Use cherry, and stain it a real
pretty color...


I found a can of "sea-foam" green ("institutional green" for those of
us old enough to remember)latex would look real good on that
cherry...;^)

Thanks for the conversation; I've found it helpful.

Dan


  #11   Report Post  
Mike Marlow
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Dan Cullimore" wrote in message
om...

I found a can of "sea-foam" green ("institutional green" for those of
us old enough to remember)latex would look real good on that
cherry...;^)

Thanks for the conversation; I've found it helpful.


You're there Dan! Sea-Foam Green is the perfect color for cherry.
Remember - Sea-Foam Green always wants to be rolled on, never brushed.

--

-Mike-



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