On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 19:57:43 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:



Dad had an office built for my sister which was "a trailer".
Hitch, Axle, the whole megillah. Thus "removable". That it was
embedded in the concrete deck was a minor issue. I'm figuring "post &
beam" means that it is "portable" (for some values).
(I have this idea to run a steel I-beams crosswise under the
wooden beams, attach a "wheel unit" at each end, and roll it "over
there".. Plan B would make 4 robots to pick up each end of the beam
and "hup, hup, hup!" walk it to "over there". With the proper
modifications, could convert a Shipping Container into a travel
Cottage, and the 'bots could take it off the truck and place it on the
camp site. Vary the Livery on said bots and I have guards / servants
/ minions standing watch. BWahahahaha!)

When I was in college, we owned a mobile home. According to state
law, as long as we kept the hitch and wheels on it, it was considered
personal property not real property, so wasn't taxed. BIG savings at
a time when I had no money. We figured that it averaged $106/mo
(IIRC); a lot less than any apartment in the area (it was a while ago
;-)

I bought a manufactured home. Part of the inspection was recording
that yes, there were no wheels attached.

I assume the property was zoned single family residential. Trailers
are usually barred from such areas (property values and all that).

I lived there for almost 8 years, and sold it "at a loss". But I
no longer had that as a line item in my budget. OTOH, there was no
way I could have found an apartment for $750 a month.

We sold ours at a loss too. Trailers (AKA mobile homes) are next to
worthless, used.

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:38:00 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

It is called "working with the rules". Friend retired to Greece,
got a house built there. Because of the way the code was written, he
got "final inspection" once the walls were up. Before power and
water, and windows, doors, and possibly the roof were installed. And
his house was appraised as such, which set his property taxes. Then
he went and did such finishing touched as putting in the windows,
putting down flooring, adding lights and electricity . ..
I also recall seeing houses with rebar sticking up out of the top
wall. Because that way the house was "unfinished" and thus taxed at a
lower rate. Lots of design features which have their roots in
avoiding tax.

That's not "avoiding" tax. That's called "evading" tax and is
generally illegal, often criminal.

I do believe that it was Justice Holmes who did point out that no
man is obligated to arraign his affairs for the benefit of the tax
man. I forget who said that the avoidance of tax is possible the
only intellectual exercise which has a real return. As I said stated
above:"It is called "working with the rules".".

No, what you describe above is not "working within the rules". It's
busting them all to hell.

The Rules do not allow A, but do allow X. And how is X defined?

Laws clearly define such things. If the building was inspected when
it was incomplete, it needs to be inspected when it is complete, if
for no other reason that you've improved it (increased its value). Try
this and, at a minimum, you may have to take out another building
permit. You may not get a CO, either, since the building is
incomplete. If you're working with the building inspector on this,
it's plain out and out fraud, probably conspiracy too.

Then that is how you present the situation so as to count as an X, and
not an A. It is not a forbidden "dock". It is a "wildlife
observation platform." It is not a Second floor, but an attic. An
incomplete house is not subject to the same taxes as a completed
house.

But you can't generally move into an incomplete house. Most
jurisdictions have a concept of a "certificate of occupancy" that
means all health and safety stuff is in there (and it's been recorded
at the tax assessor's office).

I have been told that Hughes Aircraft has small truck farm on
one of their properties. That makes the property "agricultural" and
not "Commercial" for tax purposes.

Hobby farms do that all the time but on a scale like that, I doubt it
highly. Zoning, alone, would probably make that impossible.

Ask any accountant about the
_legal_ ways to not show a profit. (Did you know that Star Wars has
yet to show a profit, on paper?

Of course. It's rare that a movie makes a "profit". Bill and Hill's
foundation doesn't make a "profit" either.

So those actors who got a percent of
the net profits are out of luck. You want a percent of the gross.)

Their agents aren't that stupid anymore.

And so on and so forth. You are not obligated to conduct your
business for the benefit of the tax man.

Certainly but you can't break the law while doing it, either. There
is a difference between "avoidance" (perfectly legitimate, and some
would say it's an obligation) and "evasion" (a criminal offence and
highly frowned upon). What you describe is clearly the latter.

But be that as it may, I take it then that you are not one to
evade your taxes by taking any deductions?

Oh, good grief! Do you really not know the difference?

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 15:05:17 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

DerbyDad03 on Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:00 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.

Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Because the main difference is I don't have the bond / license. I
have known enough folks who did/do know what they were doing to rewire
their house, and by placing a receptacle where the power from the
street will get plugged in. Thus, the entire house was "an
appliance".
(Likewise I heard the inspectors tell the department head, that if
he hardwires the new lathe, it will cost minimum of 1500 to get it
inspected and signed off on. OTOH, if he has a plug attached to the
wiring so that it just plugs in, the same inspection and certification
is $500.)

That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city.

Don't be ridiculous. Any city with dense construction and a history
of catastrophic fires will naturally put in place rules to prevent said
fires from reoccuring.

Bull****. Chicago uses that as an excuse but in fact it's really
union control.

Given modern money driven politics, it's not surprising that purchased
politicians put rules in place to favor their doners, whether big biz
or unions.

We know you're a lefty.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:46:45 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!

Yep. Although I'm old school. Shapes (to scale) cut from graph
paper, moved around a drawing of the room/space.

Of late, I have done the "furniture/object" is N inches (round
up), and that adds up to (punch Calculator) __ leaving enough room for
that to fit there, and gappage between things because you never know.
Then draft them up on the Rotring board. Yeah, some day I will have
to learn Sketchup or equivalent. OTOH, for me, I don't need precise
drawings, just some idea of what it is I intend to do.

Sketchup is a must. It's overkill for laying out a room, though I
recently used it for laying out (really, thinking though) a beam to
put a hoist on in my shop. It's 13' between walls, which makes the
beam layout[*] a bit important (The Sagulator helped a lot too ;-)

Sketchup is a must have for woodworking, IMO.

[*] Twin double 2x8s bolted together with the hoist suspended on a
couple of pieces of 2x2x3/16" angle iron spanning the top of the
beams.

When I get to the point I need something serious detailed, then
some CAD will be in the works. As I said when I started the
retraining program: last time I was 'drafting' it was all pencil and
paper. "Computer Aided Drafting" was SCi-Fi and probably meant we'd
have robots doing the final inking.

Sketchup is not CAD. It's a modeling program. If you go into it
thinking it's CAD, you'll *never* pick it up. The process is
backwards.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.

Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:41:46 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

Nah goes back to 1871. Or maybe it was the electrians union and the
NEC playing upon that fear.

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:41:46 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

Nah goes back to 1871. Or maybe it was the electrians union and the
NEC playing upon that fear.
Protects the wire from being chewed on by RATS

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:37:11 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

I bought a manufactured home. Part of the inspection was recording
that yes, there were no wheels attached.

I assume the property was zoned single family residential. Trailers
are usually barred from such areas (property values and all that).

Yep. OTOH, the place catywampus on the cul de sac, he put the
wheels back on the singel wide and "there goes the neighborhood." as
he towed it away to a buddy's place to become a storage shed.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:54:57 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:38:00 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

It is called "working with the rules". Friend retired to Greece,
got a house built there. Because of the way the code was written, he
got "final inspection" once the walls were up. Before power and
water, and windows, doors, and possibly the roof were installed. And
his house was appraised as such, which set his property taxes. Then
he went and did such finishing touched as putting in the windows,
putting down flooring, adding lights and electricity . ..
I also recall seeing houses with rebar sticking up out of the top
wall. Because that way the house was "unfinished" and thus taxed at a
lower rate. Lots of design features which have their roots in
avoiding tax.

That's not "avoiding" tax. That's called "evading" tax and is
generally illegal, often criminal.

I do believe that it was Justice Holmes who did point out that no
man is obligated to arraign his affairs for the benefit of the tax
man. I forget who said that the avoidance of tax is possible the
only intellectual exercise which has a real return. As I said stated
above:"It is called "working with the rules".".

No, what you describe above is not "working within the rules". It's
busting them all to hell.

The Rules do not allow A, but do allow X. And how is X defined?

Laws clearly define such things. If the building was inspected when
it was incomplete, it needs to be inspected when it is complete,

Did you notice that his building was in GREECE? And that he had
his building inspected _according to the law of the land_? And that
was the Practice of the Country in which his residence was being
built?


if for no other reason that you've improved it (increased its value). Try
this and, at a minimum, you may have to take out another building
permit.

If you do this in California, I'm sure. But if you haven't
noticed, Greece is not California.


You may not get a CO, either, since the building is
incomplete. If you're working with the building inspector on this,
it's plain out and out fraud, probably conspiracy too.

Then that is how you present the situation so as to count as an X, and
not an A. It is not a forbidden "dock". It is a "wildlife
observation platform." It is not a Second floor, but an attic. An
incomplete house is not subject to the same taxes as a completed
house.

But you can't generally move into an incomplete house.

Define "incomplete"!

These buildings are considered incomplete by the law of the land.
Take it up with the Romans if you don't like it.
By law, if a house was constructed overnight, it was illegal to
remove it. And lo, one morning on my way to school, I saw a "new"
house where there had been a corner in the wall the day before. Now,
I realize it did not meet the US Housing code, but so what? Under
Turkish law going back to the Ottomans (or earlier) it was legit.


Most jurisdictions have a concept of a "certificate of occupancy" that
means all health and safety stuff is in there (and it's been recorded
at the tax assessor's office).

And most jurisdictions are not the United States. Pay attention.

I have been told that Hughes Aircraft has small truck farm on
one of their properties. That makes the property "agricultural" and
not "Commercial" for tax purposes.

Hobby farms do that all the time but on a scale like that, I doubt it
highly. Zoning, alone, would probably make that impossible.

Try again. When Hughes bought the property, he was allowed to
build buildings on it, but at least between 1 and 5 acres had to
remain cultivated for it to qualify as a "farm". That was the law,
that was what he did, he had a five acre farm with some outbuildings.

Ask any accountant about the
_legal_ ways to not show a profit. (Did you know that Star Wars has
yet to show a profit, on paper?

Of course. It's rare that a movie makes a "profit". Bill and Hill's
foundation doesn't make a "profit" either.

And yet you ramble on about how the law must be followed, or else.

So those actors who got a percent of
the net profits are out of luck. You want a percent of the gross.)

Their agents aren't that stupid anymore.

And so on and so forth. You are not obligated to conduct your
business for the benefit of the tax man.

Certainly but you can't break the law while doing it, either. There
is a difference between "avoidance" (perfectly legitimate, and some
would say it's an obligation) and "evasion" (a criminal offence and
highly frowned upon). What you describe is clearly the latter.

So complying with the letter of the law is violating the law????

But be that as it may, I take it then that you are not one to
evade your taxes by taking any deductions?

Oh, good grief! Do you really not know the difference?

Yes I do. But you do seem to be the one who will conduct your
business so as to benefit the tax man. granted it is your money, so it
is your choice. Do you pay MSRP? (Manufacturers Suggest Retail
Price)

What you seem to be unable to grasp is that conforming to the
letter of the law is an old practice And the customs of your town are
not universal laws.

So have a nice day, and don't break any of the federal or state
tax laws. Or violate code, either. You better check in and make sure
that everything you do doesn't violate a law, regulation, or
departmental rule.

tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

"John Grossbohlin" on Mon, 6
Jul 2020 16:08:34 -0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
.. .

I have two sliding window panels (the remains of an 8 foot wide
five foot high unit. sort of like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-95-5-in-x-47-5-in-V-2500-Series-White-Vinyl-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-Window-with-Fiberglass-Mesh-Screen-Sierra-2VSLD-8040/202035708)

height, and the bench top is at 30 inches. That will provide
ventilation under the bench.)

You will have no ventilation... if you remove the center fixed window there
is no place for the sliding side lights to slide... See the photo in the ad
with the side light open... it slides across the face of the fixed center
window.

I know that. Which is why I have been designing a replacement
frame for the lights (thank you for that term.)

That said, the best you can do is have two fixed windows. If ventilation is
desired you will need to rethink recycling those side lights

I did. Several times. Originally, there was a panel in a fame,
and it could roll /slide back and forth into a pocket in the wall. Rev
2 had one panel fixed, and other sliding in front of it. (Or on the
inside side.)
Rev 3 is to go buy a smaller complete window second hand, and
install that.

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:58:46 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:46:45 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!
Yep. Although I'm old school. Shapes (to scale) cut from graph
paper, moved around a drawing of the room/space.
Of late, I have done the "furniture/object" is N inches (round
up), and that adds up to (punch Calculator) __ leaving enough room for
that to fit there, and gappage between things because you never know.
Then draft them up on the Rotring board. Yeah, some day I will have
to learn Sketchup or equivalent. OTOH, for me, I don't need precise
drawings, just some idea of what it is I intend to do.

Sketchup is a must. It's overkill for laying out a room, though I
recently used it for laying out (really, thinking though) a beam to
put a hoist on in my shop. It's 13' between walls, which makes the
beam layout[*] a bit important (The Sagulator helped a lot too ;-)

Sketchup is a must have for woodworking, IMO.

[*] Twin double 2x8s bolted together with the hoist suspended on a
couple of pieces of 2x2x3/16" angle iron spanning the top of the
beams.

When I get to the point I need something serious detailed, then
some CAD will be in the works. As I said when I started the
retraining program: last time I was 'drafting' it was all pencil and
paper. "Computer Aided Drafting" was SCi-Fi and probably meant we'd
have robots doing the final inking.

Sketchup is not CAD. It's a modeling program. If you go into it
thinking it's CAD, you'll *never* pick it up. The process is
backwards.

Whatever it is, so far, it hasn't interested me enough to look
into. Some people pick up software easily. not my forte.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.

Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?

Says so, right on my text books.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 23:23:32 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:54:57 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:38:00 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

It is called "working with the rules". Friend retired to Greece,
got a house built there. Because of the way the code was written, he
got "final inspection" once the walls were up. Before power and
water, and windows, doors, and possibly the roof were installed. And
his house was appraised as such, which set his property taxes. Then
he went and did such finishing touched as putting in the windows,
putting down flooring, adding lights and electricity . ..
I also recall seeing houses with rebar sticking up out of the top
wall. Because that way the house was "unfinished" and thus taxed at a
lower rate. Lots of design features which have their roots in
avoiding tax.

That's not "avoiding" tax. That's called "evading" tax and is
generally illegal, often criminal.

I do believe that it was Justice Holmes who did point out that no
man is obligated to arraign his affairs for the benefit of the tax
man. I forget who said that the avoidance of tax is possible the
only intellectual exercise which has a real return. As I said stated
above:"It is called "working with the rules".".

No, what you describe above is not "working within the rules". It's
busting them all to hell.

The Rules do not allow A, but do allow X. And how is X defined?

Laws clearly define such things. If the building was inspected when
it was incomplete, it needs to be inspected when it is complete,

Did you notice that his building was in GREECE? And that he had
his building inspected _according to the law of the land_? And that
was the Practice of the Country in which his residence was being
built?


if for no other reason that you've improved it (increased its value). Try
this and, at a minimum, you may have to take out another building
permit.

If you do this in California, I'm sure. But if you haven't
noticed, Greece is not California.


You may not get a CO, either, since the building is
incomplete. If you're working with the building inspector on this,
it's plain out and out fraud, probably conspiracy too.

Then that is how you present the situation so as to count as an X, and
not an A. It is not a forbidden "dock". It is a "wildlife
observation platform." It is not a Second floor, but an attic. An
incomplete house is not subject to the same taxes as a completed
house.

But you can't generally move into an incomplete house.

Define "incomplete"!

These buildings are considered incomplete by the law of the land.
Take it up with the Romans if you don't like it.
By law, if a house was constructed overnight, it was illegal to
remove it. And lo, one morning on my way to school, I saw a "new"
house where there had been a corner in the wall the day before. Now,
I realize it did not meet the US Housing code, but so what? Under
Turkish law going back to the Ottomans (or earlier) it was legit.


Most jurisdictions have a concept of a "certificate of occupancy" that
means all health and safety stuff is in there (and it's been recorded
at the tax assessor's office).

And most jurisdictions are not the United States. Pay attention.

I have been told that Hughes Aircraft has small truck farm on
one of their properties. That makes the property "agricultural" and
not "Commercial" for tax purposes.

Hobby farms do that all the time but on a scale like that, I doubt it
highly. Zoning, alone, would probably make that impossible.

Try again. When Hughes bought the property, he was allowed to
build buildings on it, but at least between 1 and 5 acres had to
remain cultivated for it to qualify as a "farm". That was the law,
that was what he did, he had a five acre farm with some outbuildings.

Ask any accountant about the
_legal_ ways to not show a profit. (Did you know that Star Wars has
yet to show a profit, on paper?

Of course. It's rare that a movie makes a "profit". Bill and Hill's
foundation doesn't make a "profit" either.

And yet you ramble on about how the law must be followed, or else.

So those actors who got a percent of
the net profits are out of luck. You want a percent of the gross.)

Their agents aren't that stupid anymore.

And so on and so forth. You are not obligated to conduct your
business for the benefit of the tax man.

Certainly but you can't break the law while doing it, either. There
is a difference between "avoidance" (perfectly legitimate, and some
would say it's an obligation) and "evasion" (a criminal offence and
highly frowned upon). What you describe is clearly the latter.

So complying with the letter of the law is violating the law????

But be that as it may, I take it then that you are not one to
evade your taxes by taking any deductions?

Oh, good grief! Do you really not know the difference?

Yes I do. But you do seem to be the one who will conduct your
business so as to benefit the tax man. granted it is your money, so it
is your choice. Do you pay MSRP? (Manufacturers Suggest Retail
Price)

What you seem to be unable to grasp is that conforming to the
letter of the law is an old practice And the customs of your town are
not universal laws.

So have a nice day, and don't break any of the federal or state
tax laws. Or violate code, either. You better check in and make sure
that everything you do doesn't violate a law, regulation, or
departmental rule.

And good luck with that. I doubt that a Supreme Court justice can be
_certain_ that he isn't violating some law, regulation, or rule when
he goes about his daily affairs. Of course if it comes to be a real
issue he can get his buddies together and change the law (my father
had a probably apocryphal story about Harvey Firestone and five
Justices getting stopped in a speed trap by some local yokel cop,
which did not go well for the cop).

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:41:46 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

Nah goes back to 1871. Or maybe it was the electrians union and the
NEC playing upon that fear.

In any case, one example was a light in the attic. It was suspended
from five different Romex cables, all connected together in a huge
mass of friction tape. Took me all day to get all that crap unwound
and the stickum off and get it all into a properly sized box with
proper support for the light, and I had to repull two of the cables
which were too short to reach the box. There was a lot more similar
shoddiness but that was the worst.

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:41:46 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

Nah goes back to 1871. Or maybe it was the electrians union and the
NEC playing upon that fear.

No, using it as an excuse for graft.

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 23:23:32 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:58:46 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:46:45 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!
Yep. Although I'm old school. Shapes (to scale) cut from graph
paper, moved around a drawing of the room/space.
Of late, I have done the "furniture/object" is N inches (round
up), and that adds up to (punch Calculator) __ leaving enough room for
that to fit there, and gappage between things because you never know.
Then draft them up on the Rotring board. Yeah, some day I will have
to learn Sketchup or equivalent. OTOH, for me, I don't need precise
drawings, just some idea of what it is I intend to do.

Sketchup is a must. It's overkill for laying out a room, though I
recently used it for laying out (really, thinking though) a beam to
put a hoist on in my shop. It's 13' between walls, which makes the
beam layout[*] a bit important (The Sagulator helped a lot too ;-)

Sketchup is a must have for woodworking, IMO.

[*] Twin double 2x8s bolted together with the hoist suspended on a
couple of pieces of 2x2x3/16" angle iron spanning the top of the
beams.

When I get to the point I need something serious detailed, then
some CAD will be in the works. As I said when I started the
retraining program: last time I was 'drafting' it was all pencil and
paper. "Computer Aided Drafting" was SCi-Fi and probably meant we'd
have robots doing the final inking.

Sketchup is not CAD. It's a modeling program. If you go into it
thinking it's CAD, you'll *never* pick it up. The process is
backwards.

Whatever it is, so far, it hasn't interested me enough to look
into. Some people pick up software easily. not my forte.

I don't either and have to get into the head of the developer before I
can pick it up. I started with Sketchup a number of times, each time
thinking it was a CAD program. I think it was someone here who told
me to look at it from the opposite side. Draw things first, then get
the dimensions of all the parts. It's really a 3D drawing program.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.

Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?

Says so, right on my text books.

You shouldn't have to "redraw" anything to move a hole.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:41:00 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:41:46 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

Nah goes back to 1871. Or maybe it was the electrians union and the
NEC playing upon that fear.

No, using it as an excuse for graft.

Welcome to the Machine.

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 23:23:32 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:54:57 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

....

I do believe that it was Justice Holmes who did point out that no
man is obligated to arraign his affairs for the benefit of the tax
man. I forget who said that the avoidance of tax is possible the
only intellectual exercise which has a real return. As I said stated
above:"It is called "working with the rules".".

No, what you describe above is not "working within the rules". It's
busting them all to hell.

The Rules do not allow A, but do allow X. And how is X defined?

Laws clearly define such things. If the building was inspected when
it was incomplete, it needs to be inspected when it is complete,

Did you notice that his building was in GREECE? And that he had
his building inspected _according to the law of the land_? And that
was the Practice of the Country in which his residence was being
built?

Are *YOU* in Greece? You're the one who's talking nonsense.


if for no other reason that you've improved it (increased its value). Try
this and, at a minimum, you may have to take out another building
permit.

If you do this in California, I'm sure. But if you haven't
noticed, Greece is not California.

I'm talking to *YOU*, in case you didn't notice. I'm disputing your
position.


You may not get a CO, either, since the building is
incomplete. If you're working with the building inspector on this,
it's plain out and out fraud, probably conspiracy too.

Then that is how you present the situation so as to count as an X, and
not an A. It is not a forbidden "dock". It is a "wildlife
observation platform." It is not a Second floor, but an attic. An
incomplete house is not subject to the same taxes as a completed
house.

But you can't generally move into an incomplete house.

Define "incomplete"!

No CO, which usually includes, but not limited to heat, water,
electricity, as well as things like fire/CO alarms, and often a stove.

These buildings are considered incomplete by the law of the land.
Take it up with the Romans if you don't like it.

Let me ask again. Are *YOU* in Greece?

By law, if a house was constructed overnight, it was illegal to
remove it. And lo, one morning on my way to school, I saw a "new"
house where there had been a corner in the wall the day before. Now,
I realize it did not meet the US Housing code, but so what? Under
Turkish law going back to the Ottomans (or earlier) it was legit.

You move your house from Greece to Turkey in one night?

Most jurisdictions have a concept of a "certificate of occupancy" that
means all health and safety stuff is in there (and it's been recorded
at the tax assessor's office).

And most jurisdictions are not the United States. Pay attention.

Once again. ARE YOU IN GREECE?

I'm sure that bribing local officers of the state is illegal in
Greece, too. Perhaps it's normal but that doesn't say it's legal.

I have been told that Hughes Aircraft has small truck farm on
one of their properties. That makes the property "agricultural" and
not "Commercial" for tax purposes.

Hobby farms do that all the time but on a scale like that, I doubt it
highly. Zoning, alone, would probably make that impossible.

Try again. When Hughes bought the property, he was allowed to
build buildings on it, but at least between 1 and 5 acres had to
remain cultivated for it to qualify as a "farm". That was the law,
that was what he did, he had a five acre farm with some outbuildings.

Not buying it. Even you weren't sure of the facts. Citation required
for incredible claims.

Ask any accountant about the
_legal_ ways to not show a profit. (Did you know that Star Wars has
yet to show a profit, on paper?

Of course. It's rare that a movie makes a "profit". Bill and Hill's
foundation doesn't make a "profit" either.

And yet you ramble on about how the law must be followed, or else.

Idiot. They *ARE* following the law. They have a thousand attorneys
making sure they're following the law.

So those actors who got a percent of
the net profits are out of luck. You want a percent of the gross.)

Their agents aren't that stupid anymore.

And so on and so forth. You are not obligated to conduct your
business for the benefit of the tax man.

Certainly but you can't break the law while doing it, either. There
is a difference between "avoidance" (perfectly legitimate, and some
would say it's an obligation) and "evasion" (a criminal offence and
highly frowned upon). What you describe is clearly the latter.

So complying with the letter of the law is violating the law????

Tax evasion is against the law, yes. Yes, violating the letter of the
law is against the law. boggle?

But be that as it may, I take it then that you are not one to
evade your taxes by taking any deductions?

Oh, good grief! Do you really not know the difference?

Yes I do. But you do seem to be the one who will conduct your
business so as to benefit the tax man. granted it is your money, so it
is your choice. Do you pay MSRP? (Manufacturers Suggest Retail
Price)

You really can't read, can you?

What you seem to be unable to grasp is that conforming to the
letter of the law is an old practice And the customs of your town are
not universal laws.

Being thrown in prison is an old practice, too. Yes, it's illegal to
evade taxes in my town, and I'll bet it is in yours, too.

So have a nice day, and don't break any of the federal or state
tax laws. Or violate code, either. You better check in and make sure
that everything you do doesn't violate a law, regulation, or
departmental rule.

I try not to. It's a good way to live life.

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:54:57 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

But be that as it may, I take it then that you are not one to
evade your taxes by taking any deductions?

Oh, good grief! Do you really not know the difference?

Look up the Luxury Tax Act of 1991. Great idea, add a 10%
surcharge on boats over $100,000. Would be a real revenue generator.

For some reason, if failed to bring in all that much money, and
two years later it was repealed, due to the lack of jobs, and the
closing of boat building yards. Why? Because people do not have to
conduct their business so as benefit the tax man. While US yards were
closing due to lack of work, the Canadian yards 200 miles to the north
were booked solid.
Now, I'm sure that you'd be willing to chose a US yard, never mind
that it is a minimum of 10% more expensive. Because after all,
apparently to you "avoiding tax" is the same as "evading". And you
wouldn't want to "evade" any taxes, right?

tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On 7/6/2020 5:58 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:46:45 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!

Yep. Although I'm old school. Shapes (to scale) cut from graph
paper, moved around a drawing of the room/space.

Of late, I have done the "furniture/object" is N inches (round
up), and that adds up to (punch Calculator) __ leaving enough room for
that to fit there, and gappage between things because you never know.
Then draft them up on the Rotring board. Yeah, some day I will have
to learn Sketchup or equivalent. OTOH, for me, I don't need precise
drawings, just some idea of what it is I intend to do.

Sketchup is a must. It's overkill for laying out a room, though I
recently used it for laying out (really, thinking though) a beam to
put a hoist on in my shop. It's 13' between walls, which makes the
beam layout[*] a bit important (The Sagulator helped a lot too ;-)

Sketchup is a must have for woodworking, IMO.

[*] Twin double 2x8s bolted together with the hoist suspended on a
couple of pieces of 2x2x3/16" angle iron spanning the top of the
beams.

When I get to the point I need something serious detailed, then
some CAD will be in the works. As I said when I started the
retraining program: last time I was 'drafting' it was all pencil and
paper. "Computer Aided Drafting" was SCi-Fi and probably meant we'd
have robots doing the final inking.

Sketchup is not CAD. It's a modeling program. If you go into it
thinking it's CAD, you'll *never* pick it up. The process is
backwards.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.

Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?



LOL, I learned drafting when I "was" going to be an architect, early 70's.
So assuming CAD being better than actual drawings, we used an eraser if
we needed to revise a drawing, certainly not starting the whole drawing
over.

on Tue, 07 Jul 2020 21:28:38 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 23:23:32 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:54:57 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

...

I do believe that it was Justice Holmes who did point out that no
man is obligated to arraign his affairs for the benefit of the tax
man. I forget who said that the avoidance of tax is possible the
only intellectual exercise which has a real return. As I said stated
above:"It is called "working with the rules".".

No, what you describe above is not "working within the rules". It's
busting them all to hell.

The Rules do not allow A, but do allow X. And how is X defined?

Laws clearly define such things. If the building was inspected when
it was incomplete, it needs to be inspected when it is complete,

Did you notice that his building was in GREECE? And that he had
his building inspected _according to the law of the land_? And that
was the Practice of the Country in which his residence was being
built?

Are *YOU* in Greece? You're the one who's talking nonsense.

` Okay, lets both calm down. Cum Romae ritum romanum sequuntur.
YMMV. Check your local requirements. Do not try this at home.
In Greece that is the procedure, it is not in the States. By law,
the house was complete. Just as the house with the exposed rebar is
"not complete" by the local laws. Just as the guy's "closet" didn't
need to have outlets every six feet, but if he ever converts it to a
dining room they'll need to be installed first. (On a tangent, I'll
need to check, but I have heard that in some places unless the room
has a closet with a door, it can be classified as "not a bedroom". So
it is a two bedroom house.)

OTOH, someone posted about saving money because the "manufactured
home" they lived in still had the wheels attached, ergo was not "a
house" but a "trailer". Avoiding tax, or evading tax?
I'm sure there are parts of the world where no building permit is
required, necessary, or existing. OTOH, I recall a guy who was having
trouble with getting permits for something, and his foreign born wife
said 'That's the problem with democracy, you can't find out who to
bribe to get things done.'.

I have traveled enough and have seen many things which I knew
would not be permitted in the States. When I returned from Germany, I
realized that most of the cars on the streets would not pass TUV
(Technischer Überwachungsverein, the annual inspection). So what? Ich
bin nicht mehr in Deutschland. YMMV.
OTOH, there are many things which I see in the states which
weren't permitted in Germany. Bald tires. Had friends get a ticket in
the mail for having tires with insufficient tread. Yes, the officer
on patrol noticed his parked car had at least one "bald" tire.
When I was departing to live overseas, one thing I was told was
"The Bill of Rights end at the shoreline.". (AFRTS had that as a PSA,
too.) Meaning, if you run afoul of local laws, don't claim
Constitutional Protections. Along those lines, I had to make a
statement in Egypt about a burglary. While the colonel of the police
is conducting his preliminary investigation. I didn't have much of the
Arabic, but I could tell that the one guy was saying,loosely
translated, "Effendi, It wasn't me, it was his idea, please don't hit
me". I said "Thank God for the fifth amendment."
I have considered moving/ living in Canada. It is very much like
the US, similar languages, culture, etc. Save for the one small minor
issue that it is _not_ the US, and I can suddenly find myself afoul of
the law insisting on legal protections which are different than in the
States. "Oops" - its not so similar any more.

The whole point is: What are the rules and regulations where you
are? Not what they are 'back home', but here? What is permitted in
one state may not be permitted in another. E.G., class three firearms
are legal in Oregon, but not even parts for them are legal in
Washington. As they said in Oklahoma "what's the difference between a
wet and dry county? In a dry county you can buy 'strong drink' on the
Sabbath." [sf/x: rimshot]
Times change, what was isn't, what wasn't, is. It used to be that
you could be in college and buy booze in some states - legally. It
used to also be that you could buy heroin in the corner drug store,
but hooch was illegal (although I've been told, you could get it
delivered.). Then it changed round the other way.

As to the whole issue of avoiding taxes, vs evading them: I recall
a report about a guy who was importing full size houses as kits, into
Japan. One day he gets a call, one of his shipments is oversized, and
the custom duty will cost a bundle. He says "Hai! Please wait till I
can inspect and see if it can be resolved." He arrives, and lo, one
board is sticking out "too far". He smacks it back in with a hammer,
problem solved, no need for "oversized load" duty. Not evading,
avoiding.
Duty free shops - you can buy this here, free of the local taxes,
but, you cannot consume it here.
The malls and parking lots in Bellingham Washington are full of
RVs of Canadians who are staying out of Canada long enough that their
purchases qualify for lesser customs rate. I've done similar going
north. Spend two days in Canada and I save on any custom fees on
purchases. Did you know that you can't buy beer in Canadian
supermarkets? I finally found the "packy" and bought a six pack of
American beer. For a fir ends Birthday, because he liked "imported
beers." The Custom's Agent said "not enough to justify the paperwork,
have a nice party."

We laugh at pictures of overloaded trucks, busses and trains, but
locally that is "accepted". As long as there is room for the driver
and it moves, it is not all that much overloaded. Just do not try that
in the States.

Fnord, I can't haggle in the Safeway as I could in Turkey. Totally
not fair. OTOH, ... I wonder if the merchants in the bazaar now
take credit cards?

to sum up: Cum Romae ritum romanum sequuntur.

tschus
pyotr

YMMV. Check your local requirements. Winner is responsible for
all taxes and fees. Do not try this at home. Consult with your
attorney. And an Engineer.Let the buyer beware. Guaranteed not to rip,
rot, rust, bust or throw dust. Will not chip, fade, peel or crack for
thirty feet or thirty seconds, provided the customer does not touch
the car.
For entertainment purposes only. This side up. Use no hooks. Void
where prohibited or not specifically not prohibited. This document
gives you no specific legal rights, user takes full responsibility for
everything and anything which could, might, or does go wrong resulting
in any kind or type of problem or difficulty, embarrassment, lost of
money, goods, services, sleep, memory, or anything else whatsoever.
No representation or warranty expressed or implied, with respect
to the completeness, accuracy, fitness for any particular purpose, or
utility of these materials or any information contained herein.
Warranty does not cover normal wear and tear, misuse, accident,
lightning, flood, hail storm, tornado, tsunami, volcanic eruption,
avalanche, earthquake or tremor, hurricane, solar activity, meteorite
strike, nearby supernova and other Acts of God, neglect, damage from
improper or unauthorized use, unauthorized use, unauthorized repair,
improper installation, typographical errors, electromagnetic radiation
from nuclear detonations, microwave ovens or mobile phones, sonic boom
vibrations, ionizing radiation, customer adjustments that are not
covered in this list, and incidents owing to an airplane crash, ship
sinking or taking on water, motor vehicle crashing, dropping the item,
falling rocks, leaky roof, broken glass, disk failure, mud slides,
forest fire, riots or other civil unrest, acts of terrorism, piracy,
Norse raids, war, whether declared or not, explosive devices or
projectiles (including, but not limited to, arrows, crossbow bolts,
bullets, shot, cannon balls, BBs, shrapnel, lasers, napalm, torpedoes,
ICBMs, or emissions of electromagnetic radiation such as radio waves,
microwaves, infra-red radiation, visible light, UV, X-rays, alpha,
beta and gamma rays, neutrons, neutrinos, positrons, N-rays, knives,
stones, bricks, spit-wads, spears, javelins, axes, etc.).

Be careful. IF anything goes wrong, you should not have done that
in the first place and it is your fault.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet on Wed, 8 Jul 2020 09:51:20 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
On 7/6/2020 5:58 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:46:45 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!

Yep. Although I'm old school. Shapes (to scale) cut from graph
paper, moved around a drawing of the room/space.

Of late, I have done the "furniture/object" is N inches (round
up), and that adds up to (punch Calculator) __ leaving enough room for
that to fit there, and gappage between things because you never know.
Then draft them up on the Rotring board. Yeah, some day I will have
to learn Sketchup or equivalent. OTOH, for me, I don't need precise
drawings, just some idea of what it is I intend to do.

Sketchup is a must. It's overkill for laying out a room, though I
recently used it for laying out (really, thinking though) a beam to
put a hoist on in my shop. It's 13' between walls, which makes the
beam layout[*] a bit important (The Sagulator helped a lot too ;-)

Sketchup is a must have for woodworking, IMO.

[*] Twin double 2x8s bolted together with the hoist suspended on a
couple of pieces of 2x2x3/16" angle iron spanning the top of the
beams.

When I get to the point I need something serious detailed, then
some CAD will be in the works. As I said when I started the
retraining program: last time I was 'drafting' it was all pencil and
paper. "Computer Aided Drafting" was SCi-Fi and probably meant we'd
have robots doing the final inking.

Sketchup is not CAD. It's a modeling program. If you go into it
thinking it's CAD, you'll *never* pick it up. The process is
backwards.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.

Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?


LOL, I learned drafting when I "was" going to be an architect, early 70's.
So assuming CAD being better than actual drawings, we used an eraser if
we needed to revise a drawing, certainly not starting the whole drawing
over.

So did I, so do I "so let it be." But maybe there was something
about erasing ink that wasn't covered in my class. I dunno.

Nothing like noticing that this work order is Rev D, the next work
order in the queue is Rev C, and the actual program in the machine is
for Rev E? "Um, Boss, is this going to be a problem?"
Or the time that I saw that this line of holes is missing one of
the location dimensions. "Anywhere on the part , just 2.375 inches
from the other one."

Or the time, first day on the job, guy I'm working with see the
part is out of straightness. Goes to get the gizmo. I'm waiting,
reading the work order. He gets back and I ask "Uh, it says here,
that after this procedure, not to do whatever it is you have in mind.
Is that going to be a problem?"

Getting cross trained CAD after being a machinist was fun. I
think.


--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:46:41 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Whatever it is, so far, it hasn't interested me enough to look
into. Some people pick up software easily. not my forte.

I don't either and have to get into the head of the developer before I
can pick it up. I started with Sketchup a number of times, each time
thinking it was a CAD program. I think it was someone here who told
me to look at it from the opposite side. Draw things first, then get
the dimensions of all the parts. It's really a 3D drawing program.

So I do the drawing on paper, and port it to the program. Hmm,
maybe I can make it work.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.

Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?

Says so, right on my text books.

You shouldn't have to "redraw" anything to move a hole.

If you have a paper & ink drawing, revisions required the entire
thing be redrawn and re inked. Because what is on the drawing is the
legal definition of the part. I know that Boeing issues
"notifications" which are to amend / clarify a portion of a drawing,
but at one level, that is dumb. I have waded through masses of paper
to see if there is a reason why the part I have in hand, which does
not match the drawing I'm seeing, "is in spec."
Fnord - last run of an extruded part, and the extrusion doesn't
match the drawing. Off by "that much" which is way out of tolerance.
Oy. So much for the rest of the shift.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:57:54 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:41:00 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:41:46 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

Nah goes back to 1871. Or maybe it was the electrians union and the
NEC playing upon that fear.

No, using it as an excuse for graft.

Welcome to the Machine.

Exactly. That's why I don't live in a fascist state, like Illinois,
anymore.

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:14:36 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:54:57 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

But be that as it may, I take it then that you are not one to
evade your taxes by taking any deductions?

Oh, good grief! Do you really not know the difference?

Look up the Luxury Tax Act of 1991. Great idea, add a 10%
surcharge on boats over $100,000. Would be a real revenue generator.

And that's relevant how?

For some reason, if failed to bring in all that much money, and
two years later it was repealed, due to the lack of jobs, and the
closing of boat building yards. Why? Because people do not have to
conduct their business so as benefit the tax man. While US yards were
closing due to lack of work, the Canadian yards 200 miles to the north
were booked solid.

And that's relevant how?

Now, I'm sure that you'd be willing to chose a US yard, never mind
that it is a minimum of 10% more expensive. Because after all,
apparently to you "avoiding tax" is the same as "evading". And you
wouldn't want to "evade" any taxes, right?

And that's relevant how?

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 12:35:37 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:46:41 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Whatever it is, so far, it hasn't interested me enough to look
into. Some people pick up software easily. not my forte.

I don't either and have to get into the head of the developer before I
can pick it up. I started with Sketchup a number of times, each time
thinking it was a CAD program. I think it was someone here who told
me to look at it from the opposite side. Draw things first, then get
the dimensions of all the parts. It's really a 3D drawing program.

So I do the drawing on paper, and port it to the program. Hmm,
maybe I can make it work.

That's nuts. Use the program for what it's designed for. 3D drawing.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.

Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?

Says so, right on my text books.

You shouldn't have to "redraw" anything to move a hole.

If you have a paper & ink drawing, revisions required the entire
thing be redrawn and re inked. Because what is on the drawing is the
legal definition of the part. I know that Boeing issues
"notifications" which are to amend / clarify a portion of a drawing,
but at one level, that is dumb. I have waded through masses of paper
to see if there is a reason why the part I have in hand, which does
not match the drawing I'm seeing, "is in spec."

So why do you do it?

Fnord - last run of an extruded part, and the extrusion doesn't
match the drawing. Off by "that much" which is way out of tolerance.
Oy. So much for the rest of the shift.

Different issue. Sketchup would be *perfect* for designing
extrusions. Draw the cross section and pull it in the 'Z' direction.

On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:48:11 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 19:57:54 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:41:00 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:33:40 -0500, Markem
wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 18:41:46 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

Fix what? Messed up what? Residential electrical work isn't rocket
surgery, unless you live in Chicago, where everything needs to be in
thin-wall conduit, even if buried in the walls. I guess they think
that'll protect the wiring against random bullets.

Nah goes back to 1871. Or maybe it was the electrians union and the
NEC playing upon that fear.

No, using it as an excuse for graft.

Welcome to the Machine.

Exactly. That's why I don't live in a fascist state, like Illinois,
anymore.

Yep

on Wed, 08 Jul 2020 21:52:06 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2020 12:35:37 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
on Tue, 07 Jul 2020 20:46:41 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
Whatever it is, so far, it hasn't interested me enough to look
into. Some people pick up software easily. not my forte.
I don't either and have to get into the head of the developer before I
can pick it up. I started with Sketchup a number of times, each time
thinking it was a CAD program. I think it was someone here who told
me to look at it from the opposite side. Draw things first, then get
the dimensions of all the parts. It's really a 3D drawing program.

So I do the drawing on paper, and port it to the program. Hmm,
maybe I can make it work.

That's nuts. Use the program for what it's designed for. 3D drawing.

that's what I said. Everything starts on the proverbial cocktail
napkin.

The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.
Huh? You do know the 'C' is for "computer", right?
Says so, right on my text books.
You shouldn't have to "redraw" anything to move a hole.

If you have a paper & ink drawing, revisions required the entire
thing be redrawn and re inked. Because what is on the drawing is the
legal definition of the part. I know that Boeing issues
"notifications" which are to amend / clarify a portion of a drawing,
but at one level, that is dumb. I have waded through masses of paper
to see if there is a reason why the part I have in hand, which does
not match the drawing I'm seeing, "is in spec."

So why do you do it?

It was part of the job. One of the things I have realized over
the years: when it is my part / project, the drawings can be as vague
as they want, I know what I'm trying to do. But if I want some one
else to help, make or inspect the results, then I need complete
detailed drawing.

In this case the part I have just run, does not match the
specification of the print with the work order. It is way out of
specification, and thus "scrap". (As the saying goes "You can't make
scrap fast enough to turn a profit.") Because the size specification
on the drawing was revised in an ADCN on a separate page, and possibly
_that_ was had a follow on ADCN revision of its own. You learn to
read work orders, completely.
The one which comes to mind is that the original print measured
off a beveled edge, however the ADCN showed that it was to be measured
off of a squared edge, the difference being greater than the 0.030"
tolerance. (Which is better than the parts where the spec is to where
the two angles intersect, over in the air past the curve.)

Fnord - last run of an extruded part, and the extrusion doesn't
match the drawing. Off by "that much" which is way out of tolerance.
Oy. So much for the rest of the shift.

Different issue. Sketchup would be *perfect* for designing
extrusions. Draw the cross section and pull it in the 'Z' direction.

Maybe it is.

Now, the company has gone to the effort of having several lengths
of extrusion delivered, cut to size and delivered to my work station,
along with the traveler and the program. After I run the first part
and take it in for a first part inspection, how do I shrink the
extrusion to fit the PCM of the part? Remember, this is the
customer's life sized drawing of how the part is to be, the company
has bought the extrusion, and I'm one of a dozen operations on this
part. My part of the job went perfect, but the extrusion web was too
"tall". When lined up and laid on the PCM, the bottom of the one leg
was just a tad above where the top was suppose to be: the web was
excessive by the thickness of the leg. Once I pointed that issue to
the foreman, I was done. Stop, halt, go no further, make no more
parts. "Edinburgh, we have a wee problem".
There was a guy who could just change the specification of the
part, but that was not me.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 08:01:21 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
The alternative is to go buy a shorter window, but I don't want to
waste money of things like that when I need to get some tools.


What size is the opening ?
You say that you're using the 2 sliding windows from an 8 foot
window unit - and leave us to guess that size - gee thanks.

You're welcome B-)

Sorry, it seemed "intuitively obvious" which is another way of
saying "I forgot that nobody else can see the picture in my mind which
I'm holding up before the monitor."

You could leave a doubled tripled stud in-between the 2 windows
and have half the span to worry about - ie: no worries.

Or I could do that, too.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?