On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:00 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 1:57:38 AM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
J. Clarke on Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:51:15
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.
If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.


Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Seems to me that power is the one thing that you don't screw with. You are not
the only person who could get hurt. Suppose there's a fire or you get hurt
while in the shed? It doesn't even need to be related to the power. The
emergency personnel aren't going to know where you cut corners when you
installed the power. They may rush in looking for the disconnect or catch
their equipment on that unsecured piece of Romex or step in energized water
or whatever.

I took it to mean amount of power, not quality of installation.

Things that can kill you - or more importantly, that can kill *others* - should
be done to code.

If for no other reason than liability.

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:47:31 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.

Check for other loopholes, as well. One for mar neighbor (we moved,
they didn't ;-) built their shed on a gravel base and raised the wood
floor off the gravel to get around the concrete floor definition of a
"building".

Dad had an office built for my sister which was "a trailer".
Hitch, Axle, the whole megillah. Thus "removable". That it was
embedded in the concrete deck was a minor issue. I'm figuring "post &
beam" means that it is "portable" (for some values).
(I have this idea to run a steel I-beams crosswise under the
wooden beams, attach a "wheel unit" at each end, and roll it "over
there".. Plan B would make 4 robots to pick up each end of the beam
and "hup, hup, hup!" walk it to "over there". With the proper
modifications, could convert a Shipping Container into a travel
Cottage, and the 'bots could take it off the truck and place it on the
camp site. Vary the Livery on said bots and I have guards / servants
/ minions standing watch. BWahahahaha!)
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:49:41 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:00 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 1:57:38 AM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
J. Clarke on Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:51:15
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.
If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.


Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Seems to me that power is the one thing that you don't screw with. You are not
the only person who could get hurt. Suppose there's a fire or you get hurt
while in the shed? It doesn't even need to be related to the power. The
emergency personnel aren't going to know where you cut corners when you
installed the power. They may rush in looking for the disconnect or catch
their equipment on that unsecured piece of Romex or step in energized water
or whatever.

I took it to mean amount of power, not quality of installation.

Yes. While I'd like to have a full up shop(s) {woodworking,
machining, foundry, welding, composites, CNC, electronics, and lasers.
Definitely lasers.) a) space and B) that old power supply. Ideally,
I get a commercial space already wired and plumbed. Because I doubt I
could get commercial grade power to my "garage", even if I do get a
second feed just for me.
So, a 20 amp circuit it remains.(I've checked at The Box.)

Things that can kill you - or more importantly, that can kill *others* - should
be done to code.

If for no other reason than liability.

Right, and as long as it is her name on the Deed and mine isn't, I
have to be careful about such issues. We have a cat, so there is no
doghouse where I can book an extended stay.

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

DerbyDad03 on Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:00 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.

Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Because the main difference is I don't have the bond / license. I
have known enough folks who did/do know what they were doing to rewire
their house, and by placing a receptacle where the power from the
street will get plugged in. Thus, the entire house was "an
appliance".
(Likewise I heard the inspectors tell the department head, that if
he hardwires the new lathe, it will cost minimum of 1500 to get it
inspected and signed off on. OTOH, if he has a plug attached to the
wiring so that it just plugs in, the same inspection and certification
is $500.)

Last but not least: this shop shed was wired when we moved in. I
have moved where that conduit enters the revised shop, reconnected the
fittings inside the shop, and it works. There are, however, "issues"
and I would like to fix those.
But first, I will have to clear what's against 'that' wall anyway,
and I want to change the bench around, and while I'm doing this, might
as well do that, and would building my squad of minion bots to move
the entire thing 'over there' be a workable solution? {If I win the
lottery, I'd just build the temporal transmorgifier, and hand me my
"improved" plans for the two & a half car garage, rather than simply
buy a 'new to me' house and move all this there.)


Seems to me that power is the one thing that you don't screw with. You are not
the only person who could get hurt. Suppose there's a fire or you get hurt
while in the shed? It doesn't even need to be related to the power. The
emergency personnel aren't going to know where you cut corners when you
installed the power. They may rush in looking for the disconnect or catch
their equipment on that unsecured piece of Romex or step in energized water
or whatever.

And such is my Wife's reasoning.

Leaving wires exposed is a Bad Idea. Rednecks will do that, but
I'm just a good old boy.

Things that can kill you - or more importantly, that can kill *others* - should
be done to code.

Yep. I can read the code myself, and I know people in the field.
I talk to them, I ask them. When I couldn't afford the paperwork, I
didn't do it. Now, there is a possibility I might, and so will get my
work inspected.
Because otherwise, I'm using an improvised power supply to the
shop and study. Industrial grade extension cords are still extension
cords.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:49:41 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:00 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 1:57:38 AM UTC-4, pyotr filipivich wrote:
J. Clarke on Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:51:15
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.
If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.


Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Seems to me that power is the one thing that you don't screw with. You are not
the only person who could get hurt. Suppose there's a fire or you get hurt
while in the shed? It doesn't even need to be related to the power. The
emergency personnel aren't going to know where you cut corners when you
installed the power. They may rush in looking for the disconnect or catch
their equipment on that unsecured piece of Romex or step in energized water
or whatever.

I took it to mean amount of power, not quality of installation.

Yes. While I'd like to have a full up shop(s) {woodworking,
machining, foundry, welding, composites, CNC, electronics, and lasers.
Definitely lasers.) a) space and B) that old power supply. Ideally,
I get a commercial space already wired and plumbed. Because I doubt I
could get commercial grade power to my "garage", even if I do get a
second feed just for me.
So, a 20 amp circuit it remains.(I've checked at The Box.)

Things that can kill you - or more importantly, that can kill *others* - should
be done to code.

If for no other reason than liability.

Right, and as long as it is her name on the Deed and mine isn't, I
have to be careful about such issues. We have a cat, so there is no
doghouse where I can book an extended stay.
When I built my shed neighbors asked if it was "the doghouse" and I
replied we has 2 cats, and no way on Gods green earth would my wife
let me build a "cathouse"

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:47:31 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.

Check for other loopholes, as well. One for mar neighbor (we moved,
they didn't ;-) built their shed on a gravel base and raised the wood
floor off the gravel to get around the concrete floor definition of a
"building".

Dad had an office built for my sister which was "a trailer".
Hitch, Axle, the whole megillah. Thus "removable". That it was
embedded in the concrete deck was a minor issue. I'm figuring "post &
beam" means that it is "portable" (for some values).
(I have this idea to run a steel I-beams crosswise under the
wooden beams, attach a "wheel unit" at each end, and roll it "over
there".. Plan B would make 4 robots to pick up each end of the beam
and "hup, hup, hup!" walk it to "over there". With the proper
modifications, could convert a Shipping Container into a travel
Cottage, and the 'bots could take it off the truck and place it on the
camp site. Vary the Livery on said bots and I have guards / servants
/ minions standing watch. BWahahahaha!)

Why am I hoping to see this in a new video from Boston Dynamics?

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 10:47:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 22:57:54 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Fri, 03 Jul 2020 01:27:37 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 00:53:24 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 23:02:18 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:
On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:
on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,

2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

If it's over 100 or 120 square feet or has water (or in some cases
even electricity) it needs a building permit and needs to meet a
minimum "code" (needs an engineering pass)

Ayup. IF I'd built this at the old place, it would have been
subject to county rules. 200 sq if you ask / are noticed. I could
have gotten a Shipping container in for "less". But in the city, more
rules, smaller outbuilding. And a shipping container has a six month
or end of the project time limit.


Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.

Check for other loopholes, as well. One for mar neighbor (we moved,
they didn't ;-) built their shed on a gravel base and raised the wood
floor off the gravel to get around the concrete floor definition of a
"building".

I have a friend that, other than pouring the slab and having the framing
installed professionally, built a really nice post and beam house, essentially
by himself.

He had a sunken dining room off the kitchen, with floor to ceiling windows
that looked out over the stream running through his property. It had an
adjacent sitting area with a wood burning fireplace, a beautiful chandelier,
a huge table that he had made, etc.

His construction loan was coming due and he hadn't yet installed all the
receptacles in the dining room but he had to get an inspection so he could
get a regular mortgage.

He was good friends with the inspector and had asked him for advice and
guidance throughout the build. If I told you some of the features he built
into the house, such as an elevator run by a 12V winch to bring wood up to
the first floor fireplace, you'll understand that the inspector trusted him
to do everything better than "just the minimum required".

So the inspector comes over, looks at the gorgeous dining room and says,
"You know you need a receptacle every 6 feet in a dining room, don't you?"
My buddy says "Oh...ummm...err...It's a closet!"

The inspector smiles and says "Well, you don't need any receptacles in a
closet. Let me know if you decide to turn this into a dining room at some
point." He then checked the box and moved on. ;-)

J. Clarke writes:
On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 20:49:32 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/2/2020 8:10 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:29:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Thu, 02 Jul 2020 16:29:10 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

this part of the shop has studs on 24" centers,


2 x 4 24 inch centers supporting a loft & roof ?
.... ok if you say so.

Yep. Made it myself.

I believe you described this edifice as a "shed", by which I assume
you mean as in "shed to store a lawn mower" rather than "shed to store
the Hindenberg". What are the actual dimensions? It makes a
difference in how much load everything has to support. And how much
if any snow do you usually get? That also makes a difference.

UBC tables link...
https://up.codes/viewer/los_angeles/ca-residential-code-2016/chapter/6/wall-construction#R602.3

Can get by w/ 2x4 OC for roof-ceiling assembly or attic assembly only.
If attic, can only be 32-ft span.

Any more would need 16 OC to meet code.

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

Irrelevent. DBP's cite was spot on to answer the question posed.

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:47:31 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.

Check for other loopholes, as well. One for mar neighbor (we moved,
they didn't ;-) built their shed on a gravel base and raised the wood
floor off the gravel to get around the concrete floor definition of a
"building".

Dad had an office built for my sister which was "a trailer".
Hitch, Axle, the whole megillah. Thus "removable". That it was
embedded in the concrete deck was a minor issue. I'm figuring "post &
beam" means that it is "portable" (for some values).
(I have this idea to run a steel I-beams crosswise under the
wooden beams, attach a "wheel unit" at each end, and roll it "over
there".. Plan B would make 4 robots to pick up each end of the beam
and "hup, hup, hup!" walk it to "over there". With the proper
modifications, could convert a Shipping Container into a travel
Cottage, and the 'bots could take it off the truck and place it on the
camp site. Vary the Livery on said bots and I have guards / servants
/ minions standing watch. BWahahahaha!)

When I was in college, we owned a mobile home. According to state
law, as long as we kept the hitch and wheels on it, it was considered
personal property not real property, so wasn't taxed. BIG savings at
a time when I had no money. We figured that it averaged $106/mo
(IIRC); a lot less than any apartment in the area (it was a while ago
;-)

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

DerbyDad03 on Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:00 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.

Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Because the main difference is I don't have the bond / license. I
have known enough folks who did/do know what they were doing to rewire
their house, and by placing a receptacle where the power from the
street will get plugged in. Thus, the entire house was "an
appliance".
(Likewise I heard the inspectors tell the department head, that if
he hardwires the new lathe, it will cost minimum of 1500 to get it
inspected and signed off on. OTOH, if he has a plug attached to the
wiring so that it just plugs in, the same inspection and certification
is $500.)

That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400, wrote:



That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.
... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

If it's legal, it's legal. haven't lived in any other sort of
jurisdiction. The rule is the license is a license to work for
others.

That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.
.... does your home insurance company feel the same ?
John T.

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:17:57 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400, wrote:



That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.
... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

If it's legal, it's legal. haven't lived in any other sort of
jurisdiction. The rule is the license is a license to work for
others.


Electrical inspections are not actually about
the tradesman or homeowner or cousin Billy-Bob
who may have done the work .. all are totally fine here.
Insurance companies have their own requirements -
also unrelated to any local " legalities ".
John T.

On 7/4/2020 7:18 PM, wrote:


That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.
... does your home insurance company feel the same ?
John T.

Essentially same here -- homeowner can serve as the contractor on own
residence/property, just have to get the permit and inspection when
permit needed.

I generally don't bother other than when did hire contractor owing to
size of the entry-way and other work project we did last year kicked in
the need....but still did the electrical work myself.

--

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 11:20:29 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/4/2020 7:18 PM, wrote:


That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.
... does your home insurance company feel the same ?
John T.

Essentially same here -- homeowner can serve as the contractor on own
residence/property, just have to get the permit and inspection when
permit needed.

I generally don't bother other than when did hire contractor owing to
size of the entry-way and other work project we did last year kicked in
the need....but still did the electrical work myself.

--

I've done quite a bit of electrical work in my house over the years and have
helped a few other people out. I always make sure I understand what the code
is for each project and I always follow it.

In another newsgroup, in a galaxy far, far away, there was an electrical
inspector that answered just about every question related to electrical work.

I saved his email address and when I got ready to install the inlet and
panel interlock for my generator, I contacted him. We traded a few emails
and he was immensely helpful in making sure I got it right. He even supplied
a few part numbers for me to look up so I knew exactly what I was shopping
for.

2 power outages later, I'm real glad he was available to help me out, even
if he was a few thousand miles away. While I was doing to the work, I was
confident that I was doing it right and that made me confident each time I
used the generator set up that is was safe and properly installed.

On 7/4/2020 10:44 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
....

I've done quite a bit of electrical work in my house over the years and have
helped a few other people out. I always make sure I understand what the code
is for each project and I always follow it.

In another newsgroup, in a galaxy far, far away, there was an electrical
inspector that answered just about every question related to electrical work.

I saved his email address and when I got ready to install the inlet and
panel interlock for my generator, I contacted him. We traded a few emails
and he was immensely helpful in making sure I got it right. He even supplied
a few part numbers for me to look up so I knew exactly what I was shopping
for.

2 power outages later, I'm real glad he was available to help me out, even
if he was a few thousand miles away. While I was doing to the work, I was
confident that I was doing it right and that made me confident each time I
used the generator set up that is was safe and properly installed.


Indeed, he of whom you speak is quite good and undoubtedly would be
helpful off list as well.

I follow Code altho I don't use latest revision as my reference.

I wouldn't do work elsewhere that needed to be current-Code compliant; I
don't know it that well and don't care to do so.

Since the house project was rework of existing, inspection didn't
require updating to current Code. If had been forced to, would have to
get by...

--

pyotr filipivich wrote in
:


Last but not least: this shop shed was wired when we moved in. I
have moved where that conduit enters the revised shop, reconnected the
fittings inside the shop, and it works. There are, however, "issues"
and I would like to fix those.
But first, I will have to clear what's against 'that' wall
anyway,
and I want to change the bench around, and while I'm doing this, might
as well do that, and would building my squad of minion bots to move
the entire thing 'over there' be a workable solution? {If I win the
lottery, I'd just build the temporal transmorgifier, and hand me my
"improved" plans for the two & a half car garage, rather than simply
buy a 'new to me' house and move all this there.)


Last time I laid out my shop, I did it with Sketchup. Some of the
components were just quick sketches (shelves and things--why spend more
than 10 minutes on them?) and others were downloaded from the 3D warehouse.

It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!

Puckdropper

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:04:30 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Because the main difference is I don't have the bond / license. I
have known enough folks who did/do know what they were doing to rewire
their house, and by placing a receptacle where the power from the
street will get plugged in. Thus, the entire house was "an
appliance".
(Likewise I heard the inspectors tell the department head, that if
he hardwires the new lathe, it will cost minimum of 1500 to get it
inspected and signed off on. OTOH, if he has a plug attached to the
wiring so that it just plugs in, the same inspection and certification
is $500.)

That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)

It is called "working with the rules". Friend retired to Greece,
got a house built there. Because of the way the code was written, he
got "final inspection" once the walls were up. Before power and
water, and windows, doors, and possibly the roof were installed. And
his house was appraised as such, which set his property taxes. Then
he went and did such finishing touched as putting in the windows,
putting down flooring, adding lights and electricity . ..
I also recall seeing houses with rebar sticking up oout of the top
wall. Because that way the house was "unfinished" and thus taxed at a
lower rate. Lots of design features which have their roots in
avoiding tax.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

dpb on Fri, 3 Jul 2020 07:23:59 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On 7/2/2020 10:02 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
...

A typical "shed" is not subject to code in most localities you know.

I'd wager that isn't necessarily so, but the point isn't/wasn't whether
the particular is or isn't subject to Code.

It's at least reasonable to check on what UBC says is minimum just for
knowing whether one decides to follow or not.

Does sound somewhat skimpy depending upon just what it actually does
consist of in the upper "loft".

Snow is not a major issue here.

And now I am getting concerned because what was planned, and what
is likely to happen now, are three different things.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

Puckdropper on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 17:40:32 GMT
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
pyotr filipivich wrote in
:


Last but not least: this shop shed was wired when we moved in. I
have moved where that conduit enters the revised shop, reconnected the
fittings inside the shop, and it works. There are, however, "issues"
and I would like to fix those.
But first, I will have to clear what's against 'that' wall
anyway,
and I want to change the bench around, and while I'm doing this, might
as well do that, and would building my squad of minion bots to move
the entire thing 'over there' be a workable solution? {If I win the
lottery, I'd just build the temporal transmorgifier, and hand me my
"improved" plans for the two & a half car garage, rather than simply
buy a 'new to me' house and move all this there.)


Last time I laid out my shop, I did it with Sketchup. Some of the
components were just quick sketches (shelves and things--why spend more
than 10 minutes on them?) and others were downloaded from the 3D warehouse.

It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!

Yep. Although I'm old school. Shapes (to scale) cut from graph
paper, moved around a drawing of the room/space.

Of late, I have done the "furniture/object" is N inches (round
up), and that adds up to (punch Calculator) __ leaving enough room for
that to fit there, and gappage between things because you never know.
Then draft them up on the Rotring board. Yeah, some day I will have
to learn Sketchup or equivalent. OTOH, for me, I don't need precise
drawings, just some idea of what it is I intend to do.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

DerbyDad03 on Sat, 4 Jul 2020 20:44:02 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:


I've done quite a bit of electrical work in my house over the years and have
helped a few other people out. I always make sure I understand what the code
is for each project and I always follow it.

Bingo! Know the code, and follow it. The only thing the
contractor can do that you can't, is sign the paper.
I can draw up all the plans I want, but it is Petros's stamp
"Licenced Civil Engineer" which makes them "Official". I can wire
anything I want, but it's not official until Gary or Vince sign off on
my work.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Sat, 4 Jul 2020 20:44:02 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, July 4, 2020 at 11:20:29 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/4/2020 7:18 PM, wrote:


That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.
... does your home insurance company feel the same ?
John T.

Essentially same here -- homeowner can serve as the contractor on own
residence/property, just have to get the permit and inspection when
permit needed.

I generally don't bother other than when did hire contractor owing to
size of the entry-way and other work project we did last year kicked in
the need....but still did the electrical work myself.

--

I've done quite a bit of electrical work in my house over the years and have
helped a few other people out. I always make sure I understand what the code
is for each project and I always follow it.

Absolutely. In fact I exceed it by a lot. The guy who inspected a
previous house gave me some tips on ways to show an inspector that I
really knew what I was doing, not necessarily code but more than.

In that case I put in a sub on the opposite end of the house. He
didn't blink an eye at it.

In another newsgroup, in a galaxy far, far away, there was an electrical
inspector that answered just about every question related to electrical work.

I remember him but I don't remember his name. He'd site chapter and
verse, along with a translation from NECese to English.

I saved his email address and when I got ready to install the inlet and
panel interlock for my generator, I contacted him. We traded a few emails
and he was immensely helpful in making sure I got it right. He even supplied
a few part numbers for me to look up so I knew exactly what I was shopping
for.

2 power outages later, I'm real glad he was available to help me out, even
if he was a few thousand miles away. While I was doing to the work, I was
confident that I was doing it right and that made me confident each time I
used the generator set up that is was safe and properly installed.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 17:40:32 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

pyotr filipivich wrote in
:


Last but not least: this shop shed was wired when we moved in. I
have moved where that conduit enters the revised shop, reconnected the
fittings inside the shop, and it works. There are, however, "issues"
and I would like to fix those.
But first, I will have to clear what's against 'that' wall
anyway,
and I want to change the bench around, and while I'm doing this, might
as well do that, and would building my squad of minion bots to move
the entire thing 'over there' be a workable solution? {If I win the
lottery, I'd just build the temporal transmorgifier, and hand me my
"improved" plans for the two & a half car garage, rather than simply
buy a 'new to me' house and move all this there.)


Last time I laid out my shop, I did it with Sketchup. Some of the
components were just quick sketches (shelves and things--why spend more
than 10 minutes on them?) and others were downloaded from the 3D warehouse.

It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!

That's why the invented the wheel. ;-)

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

DerbyDad03 on Sat, 4 Jul 2020 20:44:02 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:


I've done quite a bit of electrical work in my house over the years and have
helped a few other people out. I always make sure I understand what the code
is for each project and I always follow it.

Bingo! Know the code, and follow it. The only thing the
contractor can do that you can't, is sign the paper.
I can draw up all the plans I want, but it is Petros's stamp
"Licenced Civil Engineer" which makes them "Official". I can wire
anything I want, but it's not official until Gary or Vince sign off on
my work.

The point is that in any place I've lived, even a sign off isn't
necessary unless the job requires a building permit (read: increases
the property value = increases property taxes).

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:04:30 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Because the main difference is I don't have the bond / license. I
have known enough folks who did/do know what they were doing to rewire
their house, and by placing a receptacle where the power from the
street will get plugged in. Thus, the entire house was "an
appliance".
(Likewise I heard the inspectors tell the department head, that if
he hardwires the new lathe, it will cost minimum of 1500 to get it
inspected and signed off on. OTOH, if he has a plug attached to the
wiring so that it just plugs in, the same inspection and certification
is $500.)

That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)

It is called "working with the rules". Friend retired to Greece,
got a house built there. Because of the way the code was written, he
got "final inspection" once the walls were up. Before power and
water, and windows, doors, and possibly the roof were installed. And
his house was appraised as such, which set his property taxes. Then
he went and did such finishing touched as putting in the windows,
putting down flooring, adding lights and electricity . ..
I also recall seeing houses with rebar sticking up oout of the top
wall. Because that way the house was "unfinished" and thus taxed at a
lower rate. Lots of design features which have their roots in
avoiding tax.

That's not "avoiding" tax. That's called "evading" tax and is
generally illegal, often criminal.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Puckdropper on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 17:40:32 GMT
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
pyotr filipivich wrote in
m:


Last but not least: this shop shed was wired when we moved in. I
have moved where that conduit enters the revised shop, reconnected the
fittings inside the shop, and it works. There are, however, "issues"
and I would like to fix those.
But first, I will have to clear what's against 'that' wall
anyway,
and I want to change the bench around, and while I'm doing this, might
as well do that, and would building my squad of minion bots to move
the entire thing 'over there' be a workable solution? {If I win the
lottery, I'd just build the temporal transmorgifier, and hand me my
"improved" plans for the two & a half car garage, rather than simply
buy a 'new to me' house and move all this there.)


Last time I laid out my shop, I did it with Sketchup. Some of the
components were just quick sketches (shelves and things--why spend more
than 10 minutes on them?) and others were downloaded from the 3D warehouse.

It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!

Yep. Although I'm old school. Shapes (to scale) cut from graph
paper, moved around a drawing of the room/space.

Of late, I have done the "furniture/object" is N inches (round
up), and that adds up to (punch Calculator) __ leaving enough room for
that to fit there, and gappage between things because you never know.
Then draft them up on the Rotring board. Yeah, some day I will have
to learn Sketchup or equivalent. OTOH, for me, I don't need precise
drawings, just some idea of what it is I intend to do.

Sketchup is a must. It's overkill for laying out a room, though I
recently used it for laying out (really, thinking though) a beam to
put a hoist on in my shop. It's 13' between walls, which makes the
beam layout[*] a bit important (The Sagulator helped a lot too ;-)

Sketchup is a must have for woodworking, IMO.
[*] Twin double 2x8s bolted together with the hoist suspended on a
couple of pieces of 2x2x3/16" angle iron spanning the top of the
beams.

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:38:00 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

It is called "working with the rules". Friend retired to Greece,
got a house built there. Because of the way the code was written, he
got "final inspection" once the walls were up. Before power and
water, and windows, doors, and possibly the roof were installed. And
his house was appraised as such, which set his property taxes. Then
he went and did such finishing touched as putting in the windows,
putting down flooring, adding lights and electricity . ..
I also recall seeing houses with rebar sticking up out of the top
wall. Because that way the house was "unfinished" and thus taxed at a
lower rate. Lots of design features which have their roots in
avoiding tax.

That's not "avoiding" tax. That's called "evading" tax and is
generally illegal, often criminal.

I do believe that it was Justice Holmes who did point out that no
man is obligated to arraign his affairs for the benefit of the tax
man. I forget who said that the avoidance of tax is possible the
only intellectual exercise which has a real return. As I said stated
above:"It is called "working with the rules".".
The Rules do not allow A, but do allow X. And how is X defined?
Then that is how you present the situation so as to count as an X, and
not an A. It is not a forbidden "dock". It is a "wildlife
observation platform." It is not a Second floor, but an attic. An
incomplete house is not subject to the same taxes as a completed
house. I have been told that Hughes Aircraft has small truck farm on
one of their properties. That makes the property "agricultural" and
not "Commercial" for tax purposes. Ask any accountant about the
_legal_ ways to not show a profit. (Did you know that Star Wars has
yet to show a profit, on paper? So those actors who got a percent of
the net profits are out of luck. You want a percent of the gross.)
And so on and so forth. You are not obligated to conduct your
business for the benefit of the tax man.

But be that as it may, I take it then that you are not one to
evade your taxes by taking any deductions?
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:35:38 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

DerbyDad03 on Sat, 4 Jul 2020 20:44:02 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:


I've done quite a bit of electrical work in my house over the years and have
helped a few other people out. I always make sure I understand what the code
is for each project and I always follow it.

Bingo! Know the code, and follow it. The only thing the
contractor can do that you can't, is sign the paper.
I can draw up all the plans I want, but it is Petros's stamp
"Licenced Civil Engineer" which makes them "Official". I can wire
anything I want, but it's not official until Gary or Vince sign off on
my work.

The point is that in any place I've lived, even a sign off isn't
necessary unless the job requires a building permit (read: increases
the property value = increases property taxes).

Yes, that is sort of the point. If I don't need a permit, I can
do it anyway I want. Well, within limits, attracting attention to
oneself with an four story light house, or an improperly shielded
nuclear reactor for power (talk about going "off grid") and you have
all sorts of troubles.
And as the saying goes, "What the Government doesn't know about,
the government doesn't know about."

OTOH, I'm reminded of the moonshiner who got technical skill's
training while in the joint. Learned to be a copper smith. And the
next time he was caught running shine, even the sheriff and judge had
to admit, it was the nicest copper work still he'd seen in his career.

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:46:45 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

It's a lot easier to move a mouse than to move a jointer!

Yep. Although I'm old school. Shapes (to scale) cut from graph
paper, moved around a drawing of the room/space.

Of late, I have done the "furniture/object" is N inches (round
up), and that adds up to (punch Calculator) __ leaving enough room for
that to fit there, and gappage between things because you never know.
Then draft them up on the Rotring board. Yeah, some day I will have
to learn Sketchup or equivalent. OTOH, for me, I don't need precise
drawings, just some idea of what it is I intend to do.

Sketchup is a must. It's overkill for laying out a room, though I
recently used it for laying out (really, thinking though) a beam to
put a hoist on in my shop. It's 13' between walls, which makes the
beam layout[*] a bit important (The Sagulator helped a lot too ;-)

Sketchup is a must have for woodworking, IMO.

[*] Twin double 2x8s bolted together with the hoist suspended on a
couple of pieces of 2x2x3/16" angle iron spanning the top of the
beams.

When I get to the point I need something serious detailed, then
some CAD will be in the works. As I said when I started the
retraining program: last time I was 'drafting' it was all pencil and
paper. "Computer Aided Drafting" was SCi-Fi and probably meant we'd
have robots doing the final inking.
The advantage to CAD is revisions. I don't have to redraw the
entire plan just to move a hole an inch.


--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

J. Clarke on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 17:03:01
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:47:31 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.

Check for other loopholes, as well. One for mar neighbor (we moved,
they didn't ;-) built their shed on a gravel base and raised the wood
floor off the gravel to get around the concrete floor definition of a
"building".

Dad had an office built for my sister which was "a trailer".
Hitch, Axle, the whole megillah. Thus "removable". That it was
embedded in the concrete deck was a minor issue. I'm figuring "post &
beam" means that it is "portable" (for some values).
(I have this idea to run a steel I-beams crosswise under the
wooden beams, attach a "wheel unit" at each end, and roll it "over
there".. Plan B would make 4 robots to pick up each end of the beam
and "hup, hup, hup!" walk it to "over there". With the proper
modifications, could convert a Shipping Container into a travel
Cottage, and the 'bots could take it off the truck and place it on the
camp site. Vary the Livery on said bots and I have guards / servants
/ minions standing watch. BWahahahaha!)

Why am I hoping to see this in a new video from Boston Dynamics?

LOL.

Ever read the web comic Girl Genius? Steampunk and there are
"clanks" everywhere. Read "robots". Yes, I had that in mind when I
conceived of this idea.

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 19:57:43 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:47:31 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.

Check for other loopholes, as well. One for mar neighbor (we moved,
they didn't ;-) built their shed on a gravel base and raised the wood
floor off the gravel to get around the concrete floor definition of a
"building".

Dad had an office built for my sister which was "a trailer".
Hitch, Axle, the whole megillah. Thus "removable". That it was
embedded in the concrete deck was a minor issue. I'm figuring "post &
beam" means that it is "portable" (for some values).
(I have this idea to run a steel I-beams crosswise under the
wooden beams, attach a "wheel unit" at each end, and roll it "over
there".. Plan B would make 4 robots to pick up each end of the beam
and "hup, hup, hup!" walk it to "over there". With the proper
modifications, could convert a Shipping Container into a travel
Cottage, and the 'bots could take it off the truck and place it on the
camp site. Vary the Livery on said bots and I have guards / servants
/ minions standing watch. BWahahahaha!)

When I was in college, we owned a mobile home. According to state
law, as long as we kept the hitch and wheels on it, it was considered
personal property not real property, so wasn't taxed. BIG savings at
a time when I had no money. We figured that it averaged $106/mo
(IIRC); a lot less than any apartment in the area (it was a while ago
;-)

I bought a manufactured home. Part of the inspection was recording
that yes, there were no wheels attached.
I lived there for almost 8 years, and sold it "at a loss". But I
no longer had that as a line item in my budget. OTOH, there was no
way I could have found an apartment for $750 a month.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

DerbyDad03 on Sat, 4 Jul 2020 14:52:48 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:


He was good friends with the inspector and had asked him for advice and
guidance throughout the build. If I told you some of the features he built
into the house, such as an elevator run by a 12V winch to bring wood up to
the first floor fireplace, you'll understand that the inspector trusted him
to do everything better than "just the minimum required".

So the inspector comes over, looks at the gorgeous dining room and says,
"You know you need a receptacle every 6 feet in a dining room, don't you?"
My buddy says "Oh...ummm...err...It's a closet!"

The inspector smiles and says "Well, you don't need any receptacles in a
closet. Let me know if you decide to turn this into a dining room at some
point." He then checked the box and moved on. ;-)

ROFLMAO.

Reg rewired his house, and called up the PUD to move the lines
from the current connection, to the new connection,. They said it
would cost mumble dollars. He said, "oh come on!" They said, "Them's
the rules." He said, what would happen if I 'accidentally shot the
line from the pole, again, like that one time last summer?* The guy
at the PUD said "Don't do that Reg, we'll be out to move the hookup."

*Reg had a tendency to accidentally shoot things he hadn't meant to.
Like the trailer he was trying to sell. "Mark it down a hundred bucks.
Sheesh." I don't recall if he was the guy who blasted the stump clear
into the air, and it landed in the back of the pickup truck. But he
was the source of a number of stories about blowing things up with ah
"flair". Just another good ol' boy, playing with dynamite.



tschus
pyotr



--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

J. Clarke on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 17:03:01
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:47:31 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.

Check for other loopholes, as well. One for mar neighbor (we moved,
they didn't ;-) built their shed on a gravel base and raised the wood
floor off the gravel to get around the concrete floor definition of a
"building".

Dad had an office built for my sister which was "a trailer".
Hitch, Axle, the whole megillah. Thus "removable". That it was
embedded in the concrete deck was a minor issue. I'm figuring "post &
beam" means that it is "portable" (for some values).
(I have this idea to run a steel I-beams crosswise under the
wooden beams, attach a "wheel unit" at each end, and roll it "over
there".. Plan B would make 4 robots to pick up each end of the beam
and "hup, hup, hup!" walk it to "over there". With the proper
modifications, could convert a Shipping Container into a travel
Cottage, and the 'bots could take it off the truck and place it on the
camp site. Vary the Livery on said bots and I have guards / servants
/ minions standing watch. BWahahahaha!)

Why am I hoping to see this in a new video from Boston Dynamics?

LOL.

Ever read the web comic Girl Genius? Steampunk and there are
"clanks" everywhere. Read "robots". Yes, I had that in mind when I
conceived of this idea.

You know, I haven't seen a clank in that strip in a long time.

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

writes:
On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

DerbyDad03 on Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:00 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.

Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Because the main difference is I don't have the bond / license. I
have known enough folks who did/do know what they were doing to rewire
their house, and by placing a receptacle where the power from the
street will get plugged in. Thus, the entire house was "an
appliance".
(Likewise I heard the inspectors tell the department head, that if
he hardwires the new lathe, it will cost minimum of 1500 to get it
inspected and signed off on. OTOH, if he has a plug attached to the
wiring so that it just plugs in, the same inspection and certification
is $500.)

That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city.

Don't be ridiculous. Any city with dense construction and a history
of catastrophic fires will naturally put in place rules to prevent said
fires from reoccuring.

Given modern money driven politics, it's not surprising that purchased
politicians put rules in place to favor their doners, whether big biz
or unions.

J. Clarke on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:28:04
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 19:03:16 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

J. Clarke on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 17:03:01
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 10:47:31 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:

Ours is 108 sq. ft. 9 x 12 OK
10 x 12 = need a building permit.

yep.

I have consensiously^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H studiously avoided bringing
this to officialdom's attention.

Check for other loopholes, as well. One for mar neighbor (we moved,
they didn't ;-) built their shed on a gravel base and raised the wood
floor off the gravel to get around the concrete floor definition of a
"building".

Dad had an office built for my sister which was "a trailer".
Hitch, Axle, the whole megillah. Thus "removable". That it was
embedded in the concrete deck was a minor issue. I'm figuring "post &
beam" means that it is "portable" (for some values).
(I have this idea to run a steel I-beams crosswise under the
wooden beams, attach a "wheel unit" at each end, and roll it "over
there".. Plan B would make 4 robots to pick up each end of the beam
and "hup, hup, hup!" walk it to "over there". With the proper
modifications, could convert a Shipping Container into a travel
Cottage, and the 'bots could take it off the truck and place it on the
camp site. Vary the Livery on said bots and I have guards / servants
/ minions standing watch. BWahahahaha!)

Why am I hoping to see this in a new video from Boston Dynamics?

LOL.

Ever read the web comic Girl Genius? Steampunk and there are
"clanks" everywhere. Read "robots". Yes, I had that in mind when I
conceived of this idea.

You know, I haven't seen a clank in that strip in a long time.

Mostly "constructs". But have no fear "Science!"
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

J. Clarke on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 02:31:47
-0400 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 14:10:39 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Sat, 04 Jul 2020 20:18:01 -0400 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city. Where
I've lived, they want an inspection when a building permit is needed
but otherwise it's not needed for electrical work. There is no need
for licensed electricians, either, as long as you're doing the work
for yourself. I've added, I think, eight circuits (two 240V) for my
shop. Unfinished basements are a big advantage. ;-)


I'm surprised that any jurisdiction allows that sort of
electrical work - without inspection.

What the city doesn't know about,the city doesn't know about.

... does your home insurance company feel the same ?

Same goes for the insurance co. I'm not saying it is a wise idea,
but not everybody without a State Issued Certification is a fumbled
fingered idiot. (And there are some people I'd rather have do the
work, than trust some random guy with the certificate.)

The annoying thing is having to go through after the random guy with
the certificate and FIX everything that he messed up.

I'm sure that happens too.

But you have the certification, "so its all good."
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

(Scott Lurndal) on Mon, 06 Jul 2020 15:05:17 GMT
typed in rec.woodworking the following:
writes:
On Sat, 04 Jul 2020 12:24:01 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

DerbyDad03 on Sat, 4 Jul 2020 02:22:00 -0700
(PDT) typed in rec.woodworking the following:

And does that describe typical sheds?

Depends on the county/city. maximum size, or if it has water. Or
how much power. Trust me, as much as I'd like to just wire it to
"good ol boy" standards, SWMBO is of a different mind.

Why would you possibly want to go "good ol boy" when it comes to power?

Because the main difference is I don't have the bond / license. I
have known enough folks who did/do know what they were doing to rewire
their house, and by placing a receptacle where the power from the
street will get plugged in. Thus, the entire house was "an
appliance".
(Likewise I heard the inspectors tell the department head, that if
he hardwires the new lathe, it will cost minimum of 1500 to get it
inspected and signed off on. OTOH, if he has a plug attached to the
wiring so that it just plugs in, the same inspection and certification
is $500.)

That's only one of the problems living in a totalitarian city.

Don't be ridiculous. Any city with dense construction and a history
of catastrophic fires will naturally put in place rules to prevent said
fires from reoccuring.

Given modern money driven politics, it's not surprising that purchased
politicians put rules in place to favor their doners, whether big biz
or unions.

As I learned in the military (and it applies elsewhere) if the
Sergeant does not like you, he can quote chapter and verse as to why
it cannot be done, "with all due respect, sir."
If he does like you, he can quote chapter and verse as to why it
cannot be done that way, "But there is an alternative.".

Knowing the system, lets everybody be happy. IF you sign out of
the base at on minute after midnight that is when your leave / travel
time starts. As long as you sign back in before midnight of your last
day, you are good to go. I heard of a case where an airman got
himself killed in a car wreck, at 2 AM Monday morning, traveling at a
high rate of speed away from the direction of the base, at a distance
where is would be highly unlikely for him to have made roll call. But,
that was not sufficient reason to consider him any other than an
airman out on a pass, not intending to go AWOL or desert.

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

"pyotr filipivich" wrote in message
...

I have two sliding window panels (the remains of an 8 foot wide
five foot high unit. sort of like this
https://www.homedepot.com/p/JELD-WEN-95-5-in-x-47-5-in-V-2500-Series-White-Vinyl-Universal-Reversible-Sliding-Window-with-Fiberglass-Mesh-Screen-Sierra-2VSLD-8040/202035708)

height, and the bench top is at 30 inches. That will provide
ventilation under the bench.)

You will have no ventilation... if you remove the center fixed window there
is no place for the sliding side lights to slide... See the photo in the ad
with the side light open... it slides across the face of the fixed center
window.

That said, the best you can do is have two fixed windows. If ventilation is
desired you will need to rethink recycling those side lights.