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Default Sketchup grief again/still...

I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem to
"be able to communicate"...

I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one restore
the defaults?

--
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Default Sketchup grief again/still...

dpb wrote:

I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem to
"be able to communicate"...

I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one restore
the defaults?


To reset the default toolbar to its original tool set:
select Toolbar Options Add or Remove Buttons Main Toolbar Reset Toolbar
-or-
On the Customize dialog boxs Toolbars tab, select Main Toolbar and click the Reset button.

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dpb wrote:
I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't
seem to "be able to communicate"...


I found a book to be more useful than videos.




I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one
restore the defaults?

--


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On 7/14/2018 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem
to "be able to communicate"...


I found a book to be more useful than videos.

....

Any one in particular?

--

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On 7/14/2018 4:34 PM, dpb wrote:
I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem to
"be able to communicate"...

I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one restore
the defaults?

--


First off, what version are you using?

I'm using, 17.x. In this version if you accidentally loose some tool
bars you simply right click on the area where the title bar is normally
situated and you will see a drop down menu of tool bars available, used
and not used. If go to the bottom of that drop down menu you will see
the Toolbars, click that and you can edit, restore, or create more tool
bars.

Unfortunately Sketchup is no longer being updated for the free version
and they want you to use an on line version, it sucks.

IIRC I have an install file for 17 if you would be interested.


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On 7/15/2018 9:21 AM, Leon wrote:
....

Unfortunately Sketchup is no longer being updated for the free version
and they want you to use an on line version, it sucks.

IIRC I have an install file for 17 if you would be interested.


Thanks, Leon.

I ran into that, too...what is installed as near as can tell is
something they call 2017 Sketchup Make v17.2.nnnn (don't recall the nnn)

AFAICT that is running locally; I get a prompt every time open to go to
an online version that I've refused.

But, doesn't seem to match up precisely with the doc nor behavior so it
appears to me this is/was some intermediary release on the way to the
online version maybe...

I've never had any luck whatsoever w/ SU as far as getting anything
useful done; I just don't seem to have the knack to use it as it's
intended. Drawing a square and cutting a hole or dup'ing it is fine but
trying to piece stuff together to make a real object just ends up in
pure frustration...

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On 7/15/2018 10:04 AM, dpb wrote:
On 7/15/2018 9:21 AM, Leon wrote:
...

Unfortunately Sketchup is no longer being updated for the free version
and they want you to use an on line version, it sucks.

IIRC I have an install file for 17 if you would be interested.


Thanks, Leon.

I ran into that, too...what is installed as near as can tell is
something they call 2017 Sketchup Make v17.2.nnnn (don't recall the nnn)


That is what you want, that is as good as it gets unless you spend some
money.. ;~( i'm actually using 17.2.555



AFAICT that is running locally; I get a prompt every time open to go to
an online version that I've refused.


I don't get that other than the normal splash screen that has always
popped up. No extra clicks to get the program up and running.


But, doesn't seem to match up precisely with the doc nor behavior so it
appears to me this is/was some intermediary release on the way to the
online version maybe...

I've never had any luck whatsoever w/ SU as far as getting anything
useful done; I just don't seem to have the knack to use it as it's
intended.Â* Drawing a square and cutting a hole or dup'ing it is fine but
trying to piece stuff together to make a real object just ends up in
pure frustration...

--


Soooooo.. ;~) Have you learned to make each separate part of your
project into a "component" before drawing other pieces of the project?


Draw a square, push or pull it to make it a box, draw a circle on one
side and push the circle and you are done with that part of the puzzle.
NOW make all of that into a component before starting to draw another
part of the project. It is protected, so to speak, but you can edit it
later and if you do edit it later keep in mind that if you make copies
of the component they too will reflect edits.

If you do not make each "project piece" into a component before moving
on to the other pieces will result in the "part" being unprotected, so
to speak. Making a part into a component prevents it from being
attached to other lines or parts. Until an object is made into a
component it will "stick" to other parts in the drawing.

Think of building in the shop. You do not start gluing pieces of wood
together until they are the correct size. Drawing is the same, complete
the piece, make it into a component and move on to the next part of the
drawing, make into a component, and so on.

Once all pieces are components you can move them around with out them
becoming attached to each other.

IMHO this is the number one thing that you should learn to do to make
drawing go 1000% less stressful.

To make anything into a component simply hi-light all lines that you
want to be a separate piece of the project, and only those lines. The
right click the selection and choose Make Component. IIRC you can also
simply type the letter G as a shortcut. Then a box will open, you can
name the component or simply press enter to accept.

Is that what is making you pull your hair out? :~) It tool me 3 years
with separate installs of different versions before I learned to do
this. Draw like you would build, finish a part and make it a component
before going to the next part of the project.




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dpb wrote:
On 7/14/2018 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just
don't seem to "be able to communicate"...


I found a book to be more useful than videos.

...

Any one in particular?


I believe this was my first one:

https://www.amazon.com/Google-Sketch...der_0596521464

But it's 9 years old now (and can be had cheap). There seem to
be many more choices now. Surely it was designed for an older
version of the product. But I don't think that would be a big
deal. In my experience, it was easier to follow directions that
were given in text, rather than to try to pick up instructions by
watching someone in a video-where you may not see them
right-click, for instance.

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth
remembering (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to
change a model--at that point it's too late).

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything. I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from
scratch everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from
the "component store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it
out, you can build fast. Take a few months off from it, and you
won't be as fast.. ha. Good luck!

Bill



--


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On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).


Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup. More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel. Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything. I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast. Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!


I'll say. I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so. I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly. The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection. Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429) I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground. The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update. I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com
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On 7/15/2018 10:24 PM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 7/14/2018 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't
seem to "be able to communicate"...

I found a book to be more useful than videos.

...

Any one in particular?


I believe this was my first one:

https://www.amazon.com/Google-Sketch...der_0596521464


But it's 9 years old now (and can be had cheap).Â* There seem to be many
more choices now. Surely it was designed for an older version of the
product.Â* But I don't think that would be a big deal.Â*Â* In my
experience, it was easier to follow directions that were given in text,
rather than to try to pick up instructions by watching someone in a
video-where you may not see them right-click, for instance.


I like both, video and text. Video is great to understand what Sketchup
is capable of doing. Hey that is interesting, I did not know it could
do that.

Text to explain something that you want to do. Now that I know what I
want Sketchup to do, the book will explain how to do it.

IMHO software is easier to learn if you know what it will do to begin
with vs. having to learn, trial by error, what it will do.




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On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).


Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.Â* More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.Â* Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything.Â* I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast.Â* Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!


I'll say.Â* I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so.Â* I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly.Â* The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection.Â* Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429)Â* I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.


NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update.Â* I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?
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Leon wrote:

I like both, video and text.Â* Video is great to understand what
Sketchup is capable of doing.Â* Hey that is interesting, I did not
know it could do that.

Text to explain something that you want to do.Â* Now that I know
what I want Sketchup to do, the book will explain how to do it.



Exactly!
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Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 7/14/2018 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just
don't seem to "be able to communicate"...

I found a book to be more useful than videos.

...

Any one in particular?


I believe this was my first one:

https://www.amazon.com/Google-Sketch...der_0596521464



My second book on SketchUp was the one below. IIRC, I liked it's
style better. But is says "for Intermediate and Advanced users".
You can preview it at Amazon. You can probably preview other
books too, to find something to your liking. I found my first
book, the one in my earlier post, a little "dry". There must be
something better.

Google SketchUp Cookbook: Practical Recipes and Essential Techniques

(Don't forget to) Have fun! : )
Bill
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On 7/16/2018 11:09 PM, Bill wrote:
Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
On 7/14/2018 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
dpb wrote:
I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't
seem to "be able to communicate"...

I found a book to be more useful than videos.
...

Any one in particular?


I believe this was my first one:

https://www.amazon.com/Google-Sketch...der_0596521464



My second book on SketchUp was the one below. IIRC, I liked it's style
better.Â* But is says "for Intermediate and Advanced users". You can
preview it at Amazon.Â* You can probably preview other books too, to find
something to your liking.Â*Â* I found my first book, the one in my earlier
post, a little "dry". There must be something better.

Google SketchUp Cookbook: Practical Recipes and Essential Techniques

(Don't forget to) Have fun! : )
Bill


Thanks, Bill...I don't think "fun" is in the cards...

I still think in terms of the old drafting board and CAD programs that
mimicked hand drawings that used for so many years and can't seem to get
past the paradigm shift. For what I'm wanting to do, if it would run on
the 64-bit OS, I'd just go back to it but I also don't want to spend the
time at the moment to reinstall the virtual system and all...proverbial
catch-22! (And I do really, really understand in the end I need to
get to where can use SU at least with a minimal degree of proficiency)

--
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On 7/16/2018 2:59 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).


Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup. More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.
Push it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything. I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast. Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!


I'll say. I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so. I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly. The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection. Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429) I'm current at ver. 1803 build
17134.165 and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.


NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN
did it's automatic update. I haven't figured out the fix, if there is
one, yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.


Win10 is the first win I allowed updates at all. They make it hard, if
not impossible not to update the thing. Problem was I wasn't using
Sketchup when the aforementioned update apparently screwed it up, and
not sure I can go back that far to remove updates, at least the list of
prior updates only shows 2018 on my system. I've had a problem with
Thunderbird loading slowly, probably the same issue from the same
update. Others have had the same issue there as well. As it is,
Sketchup is pretty much worthless to me until I get this fixed. It
could be system specific, as in my graphics card, or chips, who knows?

Are you running WIN10 or 7 now? This is the first problem I've had since
it was released.

Have you checked with Sketchup?


No. I'm guessing they are only interested in paying customers now. All
I did (yesterday) was a DAGS that turned up the issue was/is common with
that specific win update. I tried a reinstall w/o removal of SU and it
asked if I wanted to repair errors or remove it. I did the repair
errors, and that didn't do a thing, nor did changing win compatibility
to Win 7 and win 8.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com


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On 7/17/2018 9:05 AM, dpb wrote:
On 7/16/2018 11:09 PM, Bill wrote:


(Don't forget to) Have fun! : )
Bill


Thanks, Bill...I don't think "fun" is in the cards...


That's not good.

I still think in terms of the old drafting board and CAD programs that
mimicked hand drawings that used for so many years and can't seem to get
past the paradigm shift.


That's a big problem with SU. You think you know enough about CAD that
you can sort of figure stuff out. Quicky, frustration builds and you
quit. This is why lots of us took several try's to get going with SU.
It is NOT intuitive. You must first, assume it will do everything you
want (it mostly likely will) and then SLOW DOWN, and learn some very
basic things, don't get ahead of yourself.

Once you get past the first few basic aspects, it becomes pretty easy.
Learn how to make a 2x4x8. Make it a component. This is easy, but
requires using the rectangle tool, the push tool, the selection tool,
and the dimension box. You also need to know what perspective you are
looking at (there is iso, front top left right and back)

Use Youtube videos to learn a step at a time, there are a million of
them. Some just what you need, others not so much.

For what I'm wanting to do, if it would run on
the 64-bit OS, I'd just go back to it but I also don't want to spend the
time at the moment to reinstall the virtual system and all...proverbial
catch-22! (And I do really, really understand in the end I need to
get to where can use SU at least with a minimal degree of proficiency)


Once you get the minimal degree of proficiency, the maximum is just
around the corner. But, it's tough getting started.

Oh, make sure your select tool doesn't take more than a split second to
make a selection. Mine now take at least 30 seconds so you can't use SU
if this is happening.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com
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On 7/17/2018 10:15 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/16/2018 2:59 PM, Leon wrote:


Have you checked with Sketchup?


No. I'm guessing they are only interested in paying customers now. All
I did (yesterday) was a DAGS that turned up the issue was/is common with
that specific win update. I tried a reinstall w/o removal of SU and it
asked if I wanted to repair errors or remove it. I did the repair
errors, and that didn't do a thing, nor did changing win compatibility
to Win 7 and win 8.


Did another Google search and found the fix for the select tool.

Window/preferences/Open GL/Hardware acceleration --- off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnA59j9tEb0

That fixed it. Hooray for Google and YouTube, and TakNeekwala who took
the time to post the fix.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com
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On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).


Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.Â* More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.Â* Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything.Â* I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast.Â* Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!


I'll say.Â* I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so.Â* I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly.Â* The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection.Â* Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429)Â* I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.


NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update.Â* I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?


I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.

I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.

Both operating systems are fine and well supported.

Bob
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On 7/17/2018 9:59 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/17/2018 10:15 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/16/2018 2:59 PM, Leon wrote:


Have you checked with Sketchup?


No. I'm guessing they are only interested in paying customers now.Â* All
I did (yesterday) was a DAGS that turned up the issue was/is common with
that specific win update.Â* I tried a reinstall w/o removal of SU and it
asked if I wanted to repair errors or remove it.Â* I did the repair
errors, and that didn't do a thing, nor did changing win compatibility
to Win 7 and win 8.


Did another Google search and found the fix for the select tool.

Window/preferences/Open GL/Hardware acceleration --- off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnA59j9tEb0

That fixed it.Â* Hooray for Google and YouTube, and TakNeekwala who took
the time to post the fix.


Great! FWIW there have a series of updates that have been screwing with
my computer in the last few weeks. Further updates have corrected the
problems.
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On 7/17/2018 9:45 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/17/2018 9:05 AM, dpb wrote:
On 7/16/2018 11:09 PM, Bill wrote:


(Don't forget to) Have fun! : )
Bill


Thanks, Bill...I don't think "fun" is in the cards...


That's not good.

I still think in terms of the old drafting board and CAD programs that
mimicked hand drawings that used for so many years and can't seem to get
past the paradigm shift.


That's a big problem with SU.Â* You think you know enough about CAD that
you can sort of figure stuff out.Â* Quicky, frustration builds and you
quit.Â* This is why lots of us took several try's to get going with SU.
It is NOT intuitive.Â* You must first, assume it will do everything you
want (it mostly likely will) and then SLOW DOWN, and learn some very
basic things, don't get ahead of yourself.


Nailed it! I have used probably 5~6 different CAD programs including
AutoCAD. Sketchup is totally different than all the rest.


Once you get past the first few basic aspects, it becomes pretty easy.
Learn how to make a 2x4x8. Make it a component. This is easy, but
requires using the rectangle tool, the push tool, the selection tool,
and the dimension box. You also need to know what perspective you are
looking at (there is iso, front top left right and back)


I drew every line in the beginning. ;!)



Use Youtube videos to learn a step at a time, there are a million of
them. Some just what you need, others not so much.

For what I'm wanting to do, if it would run on
the 64-bit OS, I'd just go back to it but I also don't want to spend the
time at the moment to reinstall the virtual system and all...proverbial
catch-22!Â* Â* (And I do really, really understand in the end I need to
get to where can use SU at least with a minimal degree of proficiency)


Once you get the minimal degree of proficiency, the maximum is just
around the corner. But, it's tough getting started.


Agreed, for me, suddenly everything just clicked. But you HAVE to
create components or you will get nowhere.



Oh, make sure your select tool doesn't take more than a split second to
make a selection.Â* Mine now take at least 30 seconds so you can't use SU
if this is happening.




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On 7/17/2018 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/17/2018 9:45 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/17/2018 9:05 AM, dpb wrote:
On 7/16/2018 11:09 PM, Bill wrote:


(Don't forget to) Have fun! : )
Bill


Thanks, Bill...I don't think "fun" is in the cards...


That's not good.

I still think in terms of the old drafting board and CAD programs that
mimicked hand drawings that used for so many years and can't seem to get
past the paradigm shift.


That's a big problem with SU.Â* You think you know enough about CAD
that you can sort of figure stuff out.Â* Quicky, frustration builds and
you quit.Â* This is why lots of us took several try's to get going with
SU. It is NOT intuitive.Â* You must first, assume it will do everything
you want (it mostly likely will) and then SLOW DOWN, and learn some
very basic things, don't get ahead of yourself.


Nailed it!Â* I have used probably 5~6 different CAD programs including
AutoCAD.Â* Sketchup is totally different than all the rest.


Once you get past the first few basic aspects, it becomes pretty easy.
Learn how to make a 2x4x8. Make it a component. This is easy, but
requires using the rectangle tool, the push tool, the selection tool,
and the dimension box. You also need to know what perspective you are
looking at (there is iso, front top left right and back)


I drew every line in the beginning.Â* ;!)



Use Youtube videos to learn a step at a time, there are a million of
them. Some just what you need, others not so much.

For what I'm wanting to do, if it would run on
the 64-bit OS, I'd just go back to it but I also don't want to spend the
time at the moment to reinstall the virtual system and all...proverbial
catch-22!Â* Â* (And I do really, really understand in the end I need to
get to where can use SU at least with a minimal degree of proficiency)


Once you get the minimal degree of proficiency, the maximum is just
around the corner. But, it's tough getting started.


Agreed, for me, suddenly everything just clicked.Â* But you HAVE to
create components or you will get nowhere.


Well, I just came to report...

I believe that _just maybe_ I've finally began to get a little ways off
the ground...I deleted what I spent most (at least what I could stand
before getting so frustrated would go do something else) of previous two
days doing and managed then to recreate the basic outlines of a floor
plan with entry in about 5 minutes (most of which was trying to remember
which of the stinkin' icons means which tool...). Now to see if I can
insert the immovable interior walls onto that which create the
boundaries for the proposed renovations...

An almost totally trivial result so far, but it does begin to show me
how need to try to put stuff together when one _doesn't_ draw every line
as would w/ the pencil.

Thanks for the pointers...I think this is about the fourth or fifth time
we've had the conversation, maybe this time some will "stick"!

Oh, make sure your select tool doesn't take more than a split second
to make a selection.Â* Mine now take at least 30 seconds so you can't
use SU if this is happening.


That doesn't seem an issue; I am sticking to Win7 as long as possible,
however...


I will ask one more Q? on the toolbars, however -- if one adds an
additional toolbar, it appears that they all have many of the same tools
in different toolbars -- but I don't see a way to pare those down to
eliminate the redundant or to just add a particular tool? That somehow
doesn't seem the way it ought to work...I must be missing something
here, too...

--


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Default Sketchup grief again/still...

On 7/17/2018 3:22 PM, dpb wrote:
On 7/17/2018 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/17/2018 9:45 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/17/2018 9:05 AM, dpb wrote:
On 7/16/2018 11:09 PM, Bill wrote:

(Don't forget to) Have fun! : )
Bill

Thanks, Bill...I don't think "fun" is in the cards...

That's not good.

I still think in terms of the old drafting board and CAD programs that
mimicked hand drawings that used for so many years and can't seem to
get
past the paradigm shift.

That's a big problem with SU.Â* You think you know enough about CAD
that you can sort of figure stuff out.Â* Quicky, frustration builds
and you quit.Â* This is why lots of us took several try's to get going
with SU. It is NOT intuitive.Â* You must first, assume it will do
everything you want (it mostly likely will) and then SLOW DOWN, and
learn some very basic things, don't get ahead of yourself.


Nailed it!Â* I have used probably 5~6 different CAD programs including
AutoCAD.Â* Sketchup is totally different than all the rest.


Once you get past the first few basic aspects, it becomes pretty
easy. Learn how to make a 2x4x8. Make it a component. This is easy,
but requires using the rectangle tool, the push tool, the selection
tool, and the dimension box. You also need to know what perspective
you are looking at (there is iso, front top left right and back)


I drew every line in the beginning.Â* ;!)



Use Youtube videos to learn a step at a time, there are a million of
them. Some just what you need, others not so much.

For what I'm wanting to do, if it would run on
the 64-bit OS, I'd just go back to it but I also don't want to spend
the
time at the moment to reinstall the virtual system and all...proverbial
catch-22!Â* Â* (And I do really, really understand in the end I need to
get to where can use SU at least with a minimal degree of proficiency)

Once you get the minimal degree of proficiency, the maximum is just
around the corner. But, it's tough getting started.


Agreed, for me, suddenly everything just clicked.Â* But you HAVE to
create components or you will get nowhere.


Well, I just came to report...

I believe that _just maybe_ I've finally began to get a little ways off
the ground...I deleted what I spent most (at least what I could stand
before getting so frustrated would go do something else) of previous two
days doing and managed then to recreate the basic outlines of a floor
plan with entry in about 5 minutes (most of which was trying to remember
which of the stinkin' icons means which tool...).Â* Now to see if I can
insert the immovable interior walls onto that which create the
boundaries for the proposed renovations...

An almost totally trivial result so far, but it does begin to show me
how need to try to put stuff together when one _doesn't_ draw every line
as would w/ the pencil.

Thanks for the pointers...I think this is about the fourth or fifth time
we've had the conversation, maybe this time some will "stick"!

Oh, make sure your select tool doesn't take more than a split second
to make a selection.Â* Mine now take at least 30 seconds so you can't
use SU if this is happening.


That doesn't seem an issue; I am sticking to Win7 as long as possible,
however...


I will ask one more Q? on the toolbars, however -- if one adds an
additional toolbar, it appears that they all have many of the same tools
in different toolbars -- but I don't see a way to pare those down to
eliminate the redundant or to just add a particular tool?Â* That somehow
doesn't seem the way it ought to work...I must be missing something
here, too...

--


Not too intuitive but here is how that works. Right click on the tool
bar space either on the left or top area. You will get a drop down tool
window listing all visible and non visible tool bars. At the bottom of
that window you will see, "ToolBars".

Click Tool bars. This opens a Toolbar dialog box.

NOW, ONLY WHEN THIS TOOLBAR DIALOG BOX IS OPEN...... YOU CAN

Click and drag any icon to any tool bar. With in the ToolBar dialog box
you can create a custom and empty tool bar. Drag the icons you want to
that tool bar and place the bar where you want.

When you close the ToolBar dialog box you can no longer drag icons.


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On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 3:34:34 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:
I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem to
"be able to communicate"...

I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one restore
the defaults?

--

Hi All don't dispar !!
I was one of the first autocad dealers back in 1980/81. The secret to using any new software is to push all of the buttons you can find. Your objective is to get on the same mindset as the project manager for the software. Now you can see how they move from one feature to another.

1st exercise I have my students do/learn is to get familure with moving around the screen with a mouse
2nd click on the measurement tool and drag construction lines move the construction line in the direction you want the line, then type the exact measurement , do this in all 3 dimensions
3rd now all you need to do is grab a drawing tool and carefully move the mouse till you see the pointer change then draw from construction line to the next
Good luck hope this helps
Doc

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On 7/17/2018 5:12 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/17/2018 3:22 PM, dpb wrote:

....

I will ask one more Q? on the toolbars, however -- if one adds an
additional toolbar, it appears that they all have many of the same
tools in different toolbars -- but I don't see a way to pare those
down to eliminate the redundant or to just add a particular tool?
That somehow doesn't seem the way it ought to work...I must be missing
something here, too...

--


Not too intuitive but here is how that works.Â* Right click on the tool
bar space either on the left or top area.Â* You will get a drop down tool
window listing all visible and non visible tool bars.Â* At the bottom of
that window you will see, "ToolBars".

Click Tool bars.Â* This opens a Toolbar dialog box.

NOW, ONLY WHEN THIS TOOLBAR DIALOG BOX IS OPEN......Â* YOU CAN

Click and drag any icon to any tool bar.Â* With in the ToolBar dialog box
you can create a custom and empty tool bar.Â* Drag the icons you want to
that tool bar and place the bar where you want.

When you close the ToolBar dialog box you can no longer drag icons.


Ahhh!!! Thanks...I was never able to recover the default original
configuration that I somehow managed to trash...

I did, in fact, however, get enough of the existing floor plan with what
is immovable to send to the contractor who's going to rebuild the
entryway for us to use as a starting point...he's much more adept than I
so I'll gladly pay him a little for the time.

I hated drafting so much when was a first year at uni I didn't enroll in
the required-to-graduate 2nd semester on the theory that several years
down the road I would be able to substitute some other technical
electives for the credit hours and they would let me go ahead and
graduate! Turns out I didn't have to use any hole cards for that
one, the NE Dept dropped the requirement from the syllabus so I saved
that ploy for another "required" uninteresting course I avoided...

--
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On 7/17/2018 7:58 PM, dpb wrote:
....


Ahhh!!!Â* Thanks...I was never able to recover the default original
configuration that I somehow managed to trash...

....

I think I now know what I did...I presumed (bad idea, I know! ) that
"Reset" would bring back a factory default condition instead of wiping
out a customized toolbar.

--



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Default Sketchup grief again/still...

On 7/17/2018 6:49 PM, wyzarddoc wrote:
On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 3:34:34 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:
I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem to
"be able to communicate"...

I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one restore
the defaults?

--

Hi All don't dispar !!
I was one of the first autocad dealers back in 1980/81. The secret to using any new software is to push all of the buttons you can find. Your objective is to get on the same mindset as the project manager for the software. Now you can see how they move from one feature to another.


Wise words to a point, now days it seems that if you close a panel, in a
program that you are unfamiliar with, you may never figure out how to
open it again. But I agree with your thoughts on trying every thing out.

I have received unlimited licenses to a couple of software programs for
free. I used trial ware on both and found so many bugs on the first
days of new releases that the owners rewarded me with the unlimited
licenses. I found bugs that beta testers totally missed.

If there is a bug in software I can find it, as unfortunate as that is.






1st exercise I have my students do/learn is to get familure with moving around the screen with a mouse
2nd click on the measurement tool and drag construction lines move the construction line in the direction you want the line, then type the exact measurement , do this in all 3 dimensions
3rd now all you need to do is grab a drawing tool and carefully move the mouse till you see the pointer change then draw from construction line to the next
Good luck hope this helps
Doc


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Default Sketchup grief again/still...

On 7/17/2018 4:01 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/17/2018 9:59 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/17/2018 10:15 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/16/2018 2:59 PM, Leon wrote:


Have you checked with Sketchup?

No. I'm guessing they are only interested in paying customers now. All
I did (yesterday) was a DAGS that turned up the issue was/is common with
that specific win update. I tried a reinstall w/o removal of SU and it
asked if I wanted to repair errors or remove it. I did the repair
errors, and that didn't do a thing, nor did changing win compatibility
to Win 7 and win 8.


Did another Google search and found the fix for the select tool.

Window/preferences/Open GL/Hardware acceleration --- off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnA59j9tEb0

That fixed it. Hooray for Google and YouTube, and TakNeekwala who
took the time to post the fix.


Great! FWIW there have a series of updates that have been screwing with
my computer in the last few weeks. Further updates have corrected the
problems.


I've had some issues too, besides the SU thing. For one, I had to
uninstall Nero (CD/DVD burner) for some updates to complete. Wierd,
because after updating, reinstall Nero and it works fine. Also, one
update (I assume) was screwing with my mouse, making it jump all over
the place. Something eventually fixed it sort of (still happens
occasionally).

Windows is a strange beast, always has been and basically didn't work at
all (imo) until XP and is now useable although it continues to act like
a wounded buffalo. It is, and I guess always will be, the worlds worst
operation system. A prime example of why monopolies are bad...

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com
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Default Sketchup grief again/still...

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
wrote:

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).

Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.* More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.* Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything.* I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast.* Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!

I'll say.* I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so.* I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly.* The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection.* Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429)* I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.


NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update.* I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?


I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.

I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.

Both operating systems are fine and well supported.

Bob


Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?

I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
open to hacking, virii, or system failures.

So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
system other than their outrageous pricing.

I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
reasons.
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Default Sketchup grief again/still...

On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 9:22:45 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
On 7/17/2018 4:01 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/17/2018 9:59 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/17/2018 10:15 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/16/2018 2:59 PM, Leon wrote:

Have you checked with Sketchup?

No. I'm guessing they are only interested in paying customers now. All
I did (yesterday) was a DAGS that turned up the issue was/is common with
that specific win update. I tried a reinstall w/o removal of SU and it
asked if I wanted to repair errors or remove it. I did the repair
errors, and that didn't do a thing, nor did changing win compatibility
to Win 7 and win 8.

Did another Google search and found the fix for the select tool.

Window/preferences/Open GL/Hardware acceleration --- off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnA59j9tEb0

That fixed it. Hooray for Google and YouTube, and TakNeekwala who
took the time to post the fix.


Great! FWIW there have a series of updates that have been screwing with
my computer in the last few weeks. Further updates have corrected the
problems.


I've had some issues too, besides the SU thing. For one, I had to
uninstall Nero (CD/DVD burner) for some updates to complete. Wierd,
because after updating, reinstall Nero and it works fine. Also, one
update (I assume) was screwing with my mouse, making it jump all over
the place. Something eventually fixed it sort of (still happens
occasionally).

Windows is a strange beast, always has been and basically didn't work at
all (imo) until XP and is now useable although it continues to act like
a wounded buffalo. It is, and I guess always will be, the worlds worst
operation system. A prime example of why monopolies are bad...

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com


Jack,

I will try to answer as non-prejudicially as possible. I used Dos and Windows desktop and laptop systems for 30 years. When MS office brought out their subscription pricing, I subscribed. I worked around computer application and software development most of my career (retired). I came to the conclusion that no software product will have a long life cycle with good support if there is insufficient income to support it. Thats why the subscription models are becoming the norm.

I threw in the towel on Windows with the intersection of version 8.1 and laptops with higher resolution screens. Font sizing was all over the place depending on which app you used. I also had had it with the slow degradation of windows performance due to registry bloat. Upgrading to a new version of Windows or doing a clean install with all my apps was a humongous chore. I found myself spending 2-3 days a month fussing with the home computer issues, especially when I got interested in photoshop and lightroom. I also was tired of the predictable failures of whatever computer I bought at about 3 years of age. Honestly, if MS had come out with version 10 at that time, I might never have changed. But they didnt.

Ok, to your questions. I still subscribe to MS office but may drop it next year. The apple office products have been steadily enhanced to the point that they are quite good. They are €œdifferent€ in their approach, but I have found them to be quite robust. They import and export MS office docs seemingly transparently. One caveat - if you are a power Excel user and use some of the deep analysis tools that are part of excel, you wont find that anywhere else that I know of.

I purchased the two most powerful Macbook pros available in 2014, including highest available processor, dedicated graphics card, 1 TB solid state drive,16 gb memory, and 15€ high resolution screen. They are still performance beasts to me. The build quality is better than any Windows PC I ever owned. Such things as solid metal construction and superb keyboard are apparent. The apple trackpad is so superior to anything under windows, you cannot even compare them. As to exorbitant pricing, I still am willing to pay it because I see it as a well supported long term investment. I can call apple support and speak to a well trained technician based in Austin. I can go to an Apple store and get personal help on software or hardware issues €œfor free€. All of that is part of the exorbitant price. I expect my laptop will have a life of at least 7 years. I have been through four major operating system version updates with these computers. All of the updates were free. I have not had a single issue with any update. One of these updates included a complete file system re-design to provide better performance with solid state drives. It was all transparent to me. I have not had to reinstall a single application with these updates. My days of nursing computers along have long past.

Now, let me say that there is still one windows based application that I could not replace. That is cutlist plus (finally back on a woodworking topic).. I installed a product called Parallels that allows me to run windows simultaneously under Mac OS. It is amazing. I have an icon on my mac desktop that allows me to open and run Cutlist plus in its own window just like any other mac application. It uses the trackpad, printing, clipboard, etc just like any other Mac app. All of this because of the parallels product. I find it hilarious that the cutlist developer does his development on a Mac running windows under Parallels.

I hope this has been useful to you.
Bob
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On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
wrote:

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).

Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.* More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.* Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything.* I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast.* Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!

I'll say.* I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so.* I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly.* The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection.* Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429)* I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.

NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update.* I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?


I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.

I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.

Both operating systems are fine and well supported.

Bob


Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?

I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
open to hacking, virii, or system failures.

So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
system other than their outrageous pricing.

I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
reasons.


The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
week.

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.


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I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

Bill
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On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:18:57 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
wrote:

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).

Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.Â* More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.Â* Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything.Â* I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast.Â* Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!

I'll say.Â* I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so.Â* I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly.Â* The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection.Â* Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429)Â* I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.

NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update.Â* I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?

I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.

I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.

Both operating systems are fine and well supported.

Bob


Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?

I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
open to hacking, virii, or system failures.

So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
system other than their outrageous pricing.

I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
reasons.


The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
week.

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.


I'm not saying that this is always the case but...

I worked for a major corporation and our systems store highly personal and
confidential data. Last week I attended a cybersecurity presentation put
on by our IT Security department. Many members of that team are former NSA
employees.

One of the items they mentioned was this:

"Don't you hate it when you get to the office in the morning and find that
your system has been rebooted and you have to deal with all those auto-save
files? That happens because we received credible information that a security
vulnerability has been detected and we can't wait until the next scheduled
system update. We need to install the patch as quickly as possible and we
do that during the next off-hours period for your region."

They said that all the major corporations, partners and competitors alike,
share security information so that everyone is aware of what the others
have found.

Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.

It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.
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On 7/18/2018 5:41 PM, Bob Davis wrote:
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 9:22:45 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:


Windows is a strange beast, always has been and basically didn't work at
all (imo) until XP and is now useable although it continues to act like
a wounded buffalo. It is, and I guess always will be, the worlds worst
operation system. A prime example of why monopolies are bad...

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com


Jack,

I will try to answer as non-prejudicially as possible.


Not sure how prejudice works regarding Operating Systems.
Non-prejuducially, I know Windows sucks the big one. Gates should be
burned at the stake, tarred and feathered, and whatever diabolical ideas
one can think of for foisting his crap on the world. He and his wiz kids
have set computing back at least 50 years. I used to say 25 years but
that ship has sailed, so at least 50 years:-)

I used Dos and Windows desktop and laptop systems for 30 years.

I started with DOS 2.1 in around 1983. Ran a BBS system on it for
years, then went to OS/2 which was the only Windows system that actually
worked. Also was the system administrator for a large UNIX system 7
network for 10 years. I've hated Windows it's entire life, not because
of prejudice, but because compared to OS/2 and UNIX, it was like a dog
****ting bones. XP was the first semi-useable windows, and WIN 7 and 10
are OK if you don't mind constant little problems.

When I upgraded to WIN 10, I expected all the normal problems when
upgrading windows, but to my surprise, everything worked fine when it
was done installing. I was impressed, considering my non-predudiced
hate for anything Microsoft. Still falls below my expectations for an OS.

I hope this has been useful to you.


Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear head,
and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that matter) were
amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac not so much.
The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons, Gates should be
in jail just for that alone.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com
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On 7/18/2018 9:47 PM, Bill wrote:
I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that he was
tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that way, so
that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your own, using
quality components, you can expect it to have a lifetime alot longer
than 3 years..long enough the you'll probably be ready to replace the
system for other reasons before it stops. The purchase price will be a
bit higher.Â* But you will also be in a much better position to service
it if you want to upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this
alternative option is available. I think that once you do it, you'll
never again settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

Bill


I don't think the hardware systems are so much at fault, for a short
life span, so much as all of the bloat ware that comes preinstalled.

I have had hardware fail about 3 times since 1986. a mother board in
1989, an external Seagate HD in 2012, yeah I know, and a video card in
2015. Every computer except my first and current, IIRC 6~7 of them,
were preloaded with bloatware which caused boot, shut down, and
performance issues. The computers that gave problems were Compaq and
Dell. The first computer, an AT&T, had no hard drive, so no bloatware.
My current computer, custom built in 2011 with no bloat ware, still runs
with no issues.
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On 7/18/2018 10:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.


Windows and mission-critical should never be used in the same sentence.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com


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On 7/18/2018 10:47 PM, Bill wrote:
I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that he was
tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that way, so
that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your own, using
quality components, you can expect it to have a lifetime alot longer
than 3 years..long enough the you'll probably be ready to replace the
system for other reasons before it stops. The purchase price will be a
bit higher. But you will also be in a much better position to service
it if you want to upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this
alternative option is available. I think that once you do it, you'll
never again settle for someone else's choices (in a system).


That was Bob, not me, BUT, historically, Hardware didn't last more than
3 years because it could no longer handle the software more than
hardware failure, it was obsolescence. I still have my 486 sitting
beside me, and it still works, if you want it too. When purchased, it
was good as it gets. Would bet my PCXT would still work if I didn't toss
it. Also still have my last computer running, networked to this one.
Runs fine, but too slow, use mainly for a network backup, in addition to
my other 2 backups. I think some of this is slowing down a bit though,
for example, my hard drives have not come close to filling up for years.
When I started, I thought my 10 MEG hard drive was huge, (it wasn't)
My terabyte drives are still more than adequate for my use.
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com
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On 7/19/2018 6:47 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:18:57 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
wrote:

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).

Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.Â* More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.Â* Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything.Â* I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast.Â* Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!

I'll say.Â* I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so.Â* I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly.Â* The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection.Â* Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429)Â* I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.

NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update.Â* I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?

I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.

I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.

Both operating systems are fine and well supported.

Bob

Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?

I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
open to hacking, virii, or system failures.

So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
system other than their outrageous pricing.

I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
reasons.


The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
week.

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.


I'm not saying that this is always the case but...

I worked for a major corporation and our systems store highly personal and
confidential data. Last week I attended a cybersecurity presentation put
on by our IT Security department. Many members of that team are former NSA
employees.

One of the items they mentioned was this:

"Don't you hate it when you get to the office in the morning and find that
your system has been rebooted and you have to deal with all those auto-save
files? That happens because we received credible information that a security
vulnerability has been detected and we can't wait until the next scheduled
system update. We need to install the patch as quickly as possible and we
do that during the next off-hours period for your region."

They said that all the major corporations, partners and competitors alike,
share security information so that everyone is aware of what the others
have found.

Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.


Experian, where do I begin... As a precaution I locked up all of the 4
major credit reporting agencies. My wife bought a new sewing machine
and took advantage of a 5 year Zero interest loan. I called and talked
to an Experian rep to temporarily unlock our personal information for 24
hours. While identifying myself they had some incorrect information, of
course, and I had to jump through a few hoops to correct the
information. A week or so later they send me an e-mail indicating that
my account had been relocked and that the information had been corrected.

I hope you can appreciate what was also mentioned in that e-mail.

To verify the information is correct,

Please click on the link below and enter the special password supplied.
When you get to the link, put in your name, address, SS#, and telephone
number.

How stupid are these Esperian guys? Number one security rule is to not
respond to unsolicited email requesting personal information.








It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.


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On 7/19/2018 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:
On 7/18/2018 9:47 PM, Bill wrote:
I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that he was
tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that way,
so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your own, using
quality components, you can expect it to have a lifetime alot longer
than 3 years..long enough the you'll probably be ready to replace the
system for other reasons before it stops. The purchase price will be a
bit higher. But you will also be in a much better position to service
it if you want to upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this
alternative option is available. I think that once you do it, you'll
never again settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

Bill


I don't think the hardware systems are so much at fault, for a short
life span, so much as all of the bloat ware that comes preinstalled.

I have had hardware fail about 3 times since 1986. a mother board in
1989, an external Seagate HD in 2012, yeah I know, and a video card in
2015. Every computer except my first and current, IIRC 6~7 of them,
were preloaded with bloatware which caused boot, shut down, and
performance issues. The computers that gave problems were Compaq and
Dell. The first computer, an AT&T, had no hard drive, so no bloatware.
My current computer, custom built in 2011 with no bloat ware, still runs
with no issues.


Ditto. 3 since '82 or '83. 10 meg HD failed after several years. It was
AFAIK the first PC hard drive made. Cost $400 to replace it. Years
later replaced the XT with a 486, and that huge 400 meg HD blew up in a
month. Literally came apart, sounded like a garbage disposal. Many,
many years later had a video card die, replaced it and it died again in
a few days, so since the PC was getting old, I just bought another PC
instead of fooling with it. Hardware doesn't break much, but they've
been making sure it gets outdated every few years.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com
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DerbyDad03 wrote:

Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.

It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.


Not to pick nits but it was Equifax with the data breach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYKNhpS744

It was Experion that quickly capitalized on Equifax's f@$kup with its
"We'll scan the dark web" bull**** ad campaign:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrydnr_pvQ

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Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.


Experian, where do I begin... As a precaution I locked up all of the 4
major credit reporting agencies.


Ok, I know about Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion, but who is the
fourth?

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