On Thursday, July 19, 2018 at 12:42:16 PM UTC-4, Spalted Walt wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.

It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.

Not to pick nits but it was Equifax with the data breach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYKNhpS744

That's not a picked nit, it's a valid correction. ;-)

That's what I get for trying to slam out a response while running late
getting ready for work.

Bill wrote:

I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

Bill

+1

Couldn't agree more, Bill!
The Commodore C64 was the only 'retail' computer I've ever owned.
Current config:
2 full tower 'In Win' cases I bought in '96, populated with rock solid
11yr old Intel CPU's / Gigabyte motherboards. One of which stays on
pretty much 24/7, and has since 2010.

During those 11 years, I've only _had_ to replace (due to failure) 1
stick of ram, a video card, and a Samsung hard drive (bought on a
whim). I've also replaced 3 case fans, power supply, and the stock Intel
heatsink/fan due to noisy, squeaking fans.

Once per year (usually Spring) I remove the covers and blow the dust
out, wheather they need it or not. ;-)

On Thursday, July 19, 2018 at 12:54:59 PM UTC-4, Spalted Walt wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.

Experian, where do I begin... As a precaution I locked up all of the 4
major credit reporting agencies.

Ok, I know about Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion, but who is the
fourth?

Innovis, perhaps?

DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Thursday, July 19, 2018 at 12:54:59 PM UTC-4, Spalted Walt wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.

Experian, where do I begin... As a precaution I locked up all of the 4
major credit reporting agencies.

Ok, I know about Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion, but who is the
fourth?

Innovis, perhaps?

Or possibly a fifth agency, PRBC?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovis

Jack wrote in news

Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
Gates should be in jail just for that alone.


Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry

It's a great example of scope creep. It's a good idea on its face, they
just went overboard storing stuff in it.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On 7/19/2018 2:12 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, July 19, 2018 at 12:54:59 PM UTC-4, Spalted Walt wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:


Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.

Experian, where do I begin... As a precaution I locked up all of the 4
major credit reporting agencies.

Ok, I know about Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion, but who is the
fourth?

Innovis, perhaps?


Yes

On 7/19/2018 11:42 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.

It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.

Not to pick nits but it was Equifax with the data breach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYKNhpS744

It was Experion that quickly capitalized on Equifax's f@$kup with its
"We'll scan the dark web" bull**** ad campaign:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrydnr_pvQ



Good call there, My comments should have been about Equifax, not Experian.

On 7/19/2018 9:30 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/19/2018 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:
On 7/18/2018 9:47 PM, Bill wrote:
I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that he was
tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that way,
so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your own, using
quality components, you can expect it to have a lifetime alot longer
than 3 years..long enough the you'll probably be ready to replace the
system for other reasons before it stops. The purchase price will be a
bit higher.Â* But you will also be in a much better position to service
it if you want to upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this
alternative option is available. I think that once you do it, you'll
never again settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

Bill

I don't think the hardware systems are so much at fault, for a short
life span, so much as all of the bloat ware that comes preinstalled.

I have had hardware fail about 3 times since 1986.Â* a mother board in
1989, an external Seagate HD in 2012, yeah I know, and a video card in
2015.Â* Every computer except my first and current, IIRC 6~7 of them,
were preloaded with bloatware which caused boot, shut down, and
performance issues.Â* The computers that gave problems were Compaq and
Dell.Â* The first computer, an AT&T, had no hard drive, so no bloatware.
My current computer, custom built in 2011 with no bloat ware, still runs
with no issues.

Ditto. 3 since '82 or '83.Â* 10 meg HD failed after several years. It was
AFAIK the first PC hard drive made.Â* Cost $400 to replace it. Years
later replaced the XT with a 486, and that huge 400 meg HD blew up in a
month.Â* Literally came apart, sounded like a garbage disposal.Â* Many,
many years later had a video card die, replaced it and it died again in
a few days, so since the PC was getting old, I just bought another PC
instead of fooling with it.Â* Hardware doesn't break much, but they've
been making sure it gets outdated every few years.


Back in 1994, at work we had a 286 for doing simple crap. It had a
Seagate HD and about every week it would not boot, because the HD would
not spin.

I discovered the fix, open the case, remove the HD and bang it against a
counter top, replace close the case and boot. I cannot tell you how
many times I has to do that, and it never lost data.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:46:13 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

Jack wrote in news

Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
Gates should be in jail just for that alone.


Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry

It's a great example of scope creep. It's a good idea on its face, they
just went overboard storing stuff in it.

Actually, all user-specific or hardware-specific configuration
information is _supposed_ to go there. What makes it a mess is the
idiot developers who store user-specific information in the hardware
part and vice versa.

The idea is that you log into a different machine with a different
processor and different video and different everything else, your
configuration, your application settings, etc, all go with you, all in
one neat little file.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:14:50 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 7/18/2018 10:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.

Windows and mission-critical should never be used in the same sentence.

Well, don't apply to work in our company then.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:42:06 +0000, Spalted Walt
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.

It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.

Not to pick nits but it was Equifax with the data breach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYKNhpS744

It was Experion that quickly capitalized on Equifax's f@$kup with its
"We'll scan the dark web" bull**** ad campaign:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrydnr_pvQ

The Equifax breach (a) did not result from a Windows bug, and (b) was
on a public-facing web server. The machine that I use to do my job is
not a public-facing web server.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill wrote:

I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
isn't intended to be a loss-leader.

And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
you have a process that can be parallelized.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:18:54 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
wrote:

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).

Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.* More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.* Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything.* I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast.* Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!

I'll say.* I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so.* I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly.* The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection.* Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429)* I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.

NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update.* I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?

I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.

I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.

Both operating systems are fine and well supported.

Bob

Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?

I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
open to hacking, virii, or system failures.

So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
system other than their outrageous pricing.

I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
reasons.

The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
week.

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.

John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
it to work.

Now as to it hogging your traffic on a large update, I don't know. It
can create communication problems if they both occur at the same time.

Under win updates you can schedule your active hours.
under advanced update options you can shut off automatically
downloading of updates, with subsequent setup getting ready to reboot
and do the actual install.

PLUS, under advanced/advanced options you can even setup how you would
like things to occur, even the downloading of files.

Biggest drawback to all of this, is not updating your system in a
timely fashion, or skipping daily update checks and be caught with
your pants down when a serious hack is in operation.

Hope some of this helps you.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:14:50 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 7/18/2018 10:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.

Windows and mission-critical should never be used in the same sentence.

It all depends on your IT person, whether it is you or someone else.

I can remember the days when they said a certain language compiler was
impossible to hack. If I remember right it was "J" something. designed
to operate in scripts or whatever. I was hacking it when they said it
couldn't be done, ya could've fooled me. I thought they were just
joking.

Anyhow, Windows can be tightened down enough to make a grown man cry.
But it does limit what you can do freely.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:30:15 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 7/18/2018 10:47 PM, Bill wrote:
I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that he was
tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that way, so
that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your own, using
quality components, you can expect it to have a lifetime alot longer
than 3 years..long enough the you'll probably be ready to replace the
system for other reasons before it stops. The purchase price will be a
bit higher. But you will also be in a much better position to service
it if you want to upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this
alternative option is available. I think that once you do it, you'll
never again settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

That was Bob, not me, BUT, historically, Hardware didn't last more than
3 years because it could no longer handle the software more than
hardware failure, it was obsolescence. I still have my 486 sitting
beside me, and it still works, if you want it too. When purchased, it
was good as it gets. Would bet my PCXT would still work if I didn't toss
it. Also still have my last computer running, networked to this one.
Runs fine, but too slow, use mainly for a network backup, in addition to
my other 2 backups. I think some of this is slowing down a bit though,
for example, my hard drives have not come close to filling up for years.
When I started, I thought my 10 MEG hard drive was huge, (it wasn't)
My terabyte drives are still more than adequate for my use.

My first HD was 5 Meg made by a company in Arizona, it cost me 500.
Thought I could record the whole world on it at the time.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:54:08 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill wrote:

I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
isn't intended to be a loss-leader.

And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
you have a process that can be parallelized.

You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
notable with graphics.

OFWW wrote in
:


It all depends on your IT person, whether it is you or someone else.

I can remember the days when they said a certain language compiler was
impossible to hack. If I remember right it was "J" something. designed
to operate in scripts or whatever. I was hacking it when they said it
couldn't be done, ya could've fooled me. I thought they were just
joking.

Anyhow, Windows can be tightened down enough to make a grown man cry.
But it does limit what you can do freely.

I found Windows has a single application mode. I haven't looked in to it
much, but it'd be great for a purpose specific computer where various
people can access it. Kiosks are an easy example, but at the club we've
got a computer for programming decoders and that's pretty much all we use
it for. Restricting it to run just that single program could be very
useful.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

Spalted Walt writes:
Bill wrote:

I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

Bill

+1

Couldn't agree more, Bill!
The Commodore C64 was the only 'retail' computer I've ever owned.
Current config:
2 full tower 'In Win' cases I bought in '96, populated with rock solid
11yr old Intel CPU's / Gigabyte motherboards. One of which stays on
pretty much 24/7, and has since 2010.

Probably about time to swap out the bios back-up coin cell.

J. Clarke writes:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:46:13 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

Jack wrote in news

Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
Gates should be in jail just for that alone.


Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry

It's a great example of scope creep. It's a good idea on its face, they
just went overboard storing stuff in it.

Actually, all user-specific or hardware-specific configuration
information is _supposed_ to go there. What makes it a mess is the
idiot developers who store user-specific information in the hardware
part and vice versa.

The idea is that you log into a different machine with a different
processor and different video and different everything else, your
configuration, your application settings, etc, all go with you, all in
one neat little file.

That's the major complaint. "one neat little file".

Give me unix style configuration files (ASCII, one per subsystem)
any day.

J. Clarke writes:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:14:50 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 7/18/2018 10:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.

Windows and mission-critical should never be used in the same sentence.

Well, don't apply to work in our company then.

Very happy to never apply to work for your company. APL? yeesh.

J. Clarke writes:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:42:06 +0000, Spalted Walt
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
manner and look what happened.

It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.

Not to pick nits but it was Equifax with the data breach:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYKNhpS744

It was Experion that quickly capitalized on Equifax's f@$kup with its
"We'll scan the dark web" bull**** ad campaign:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrydnr_pvQ

The Equifax breach (a) did not result from a Windows bug, and (b) was
on a public-facing web server.

which was running window server and IIS, iirc.

On 7/19/2018 11:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:54:08 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill wrote:

I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
isn't intended to be a loss-leader.

And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
you have a process that can be parallelized.

You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
notable with graphics.



AND way back when, when processing twice as fast meant something
meaningful, 5 seconds to process vs 10 seconds, that was a very
noticeable improvement.

Today cutting a half second processing time to one quarter second is not
noticeable.

I remember boot time taking up to 7 minutes on one of my od computers.
Blame HP printer software for half of that time. Today my 7 year old
custom built computer boots off if a SSD and takes 15-30 seconds.

On 7/19/2018 5:46 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Jack wrote in news

Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
Gates should be in jail just for that alone.


Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
....
Insufficient number (204) of "sorry's snipped for brevity...

It's a great example of scope creep.

Probably right, but not sure what scope creep is. Gets worse as you add
to it?

It's a good idea on its face, they
just went overboard storing stuff in it.

I don't think the registry was ever a good idea, not on it's face, back,
knees or sitting on it's butt. It was either designed by morons (most
likely) or by geniuses (most UNlikely) hell bent on making a tangled
mess that would insure hordes of (computer) illiterates would buy tons
of virus software and indeed even new computers after the tangle
overwhelmed them, their hardware and software. It's pretty much the
reason tar and feathers was invented.

So, rather than scope creep, I think it's a great example of building on
a foundation of crap. If the foundation sucks, the top floors will also
suck. It's not just the registry either, it's pretty much everything
Microsoft. Dos, Win and there apps are all poorly designed from the
bottom up. With weak foundations, you get crap.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 7/20/2018 12:09 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:30:15 -0400, Jack wrote:
.....

I think some of this is slowing down a bit though,
for example, my hard drives have not come close to filling up for years.
When I started, I thought my 10 MEG hard drive was huge, (it wasn't)
My terabyte drives are still more than adequate for my use.

My first HD was 5 Meg made by a company in Arizona, it cost me 500.
Thought I could record the whole world on it at the time.

I have Photoshop PSD pictures that one would not fit on a 10 meg drive.
One of my camera's jpg's wouldn't fit on your 5 meg drive. Right now, I
have over 30,000 jpgs, and 1300 psd and 3000 mp3 files and it makes a
small dent in my HD's. I think finally, the drive space issues are at
rest for the time being. I guess if you collect full length movies you
could have an issue. Speed, and ram have also been at bay for a while
now. I don't even pay attention to that stuff.

Even WIN 10 is marginally acceptable but interestingly, few people care.
PC's today are called Cell Phones. PC's, (I mean cell phones) are
rapidly replacing desktops, laptops, camera's and even believe it or
not, the least used tool on the PC, the phone.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 7/20/2018 10:56 AM, Leon wrote:
On 7/19/2018 11:14 PM, OFWW wrote:

You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
notable with graphics.


AND way back when, when processing twice as fast meant something
meaningful, 5 seconds to process vs 10 seconds, that was a very
noticeable improvement.

Today cutting a half second processing time to one quarter second is not
noticeable.

+1

I remember boot time taking up to 7 minutes on one of my od computers.
Blame HP printer software for half of that time. Today my 7 year old
custom built computer boots off if a SSD and takes 15-30 seconds.

I remember when I used to boot DOS from a ram drive... Don't ask, the
memory is vague.. I guess it worked like an SSD drive before they existed.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 7/20/2018 9:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
J. Clarke writes:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:46:13 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

Jack wrote in news

Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
Gates should be in jail just for that alone.


Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry

It's a great example of scope creep. It's a good idea on its face, they
just went overboard storing stuff in it.

Actually, all user-specific or hardware-specific configuration
information is _supposed_ to go there. What makes it a mess is the
idiot developers who store user-specific information in the hardware
part and vice versa.

The idea is that you log into a different machine with a different
processor and different video and different everything else, your
configuration, your application settings, etc, all go with you, all in
one neat little file.

That's the major complaint. "one neat little file".

Give me unix style configuration files (ASCII, one per subsystem)
any day.


+1

UNIX, the worlds greatest OS, undoubtedly inspired by god, or God if
you're a believer.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

Jack writes:

I remember when I used to boot DOS from a ram drive... Don't ask, the
memory is vague.. I guess it worked like an SSD drive before they existed.

We had SSDs on mainframes in the late 70's - they've been around
for a long time (but prior to flash, were rather expensive - more
long the lines of Violin Memories 1010 initial DRAM-based solid state
disks circa 2007).

See StorageTek STC4305 he http://www.storagesearch.com/chartingtheriseofssds.html

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:06:01 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 7/20/2018 12:09 AM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:30:15 -0400, Jack wrote:
....

I think some of this is slowing down a bit though,
for example, my hard drives have not come close to filling up for years.
When I started, I thought my 10 MEG hard drive was huge, (it wasn't)
My terabyte drives are still more than adequate for my use.

My first HD was 5 Meg made by a company in Arizona, it cost me 500.
Thought I could record the whole world on it at the time.

I have Photoshop PSD pictures that one would not fit on a 10 meg drive.
One of my camera's jpg's wouldn't fit on your 5 meg drive. Right now, I
have over 30,000 jpgs, and 1300 psd and 3000 mp3 files and it makes a
small dent in my HD's. I think finally, the drive space issues are at
rest for the time being. I guess if you collect full length movies you
could have an issue. Speed, and ram have also been at bay for a while
now. I don't even pay attention to that stuff.


Don't know if you have any 4k videos, etc. But they are very BIG. And
yes, my raw and TIFF files are hugh depending on the camera I use.

But like you say, for now the multi terra byte stuff should last a
while.

My 5 meg file was before digital photography was available for anyone.

Even WIN 10 is marginally acceptable but interestingly, few people care.
PC's today are called Cell Phones. PC's, (I mean cell phones) are
rapidly replacing desktops, laptops, camera's and even believe it or
not, the least used tool on the PC, the phone.

To some extent, yes, but my Ipad is better for a portable computer.

I'd sure like to see some solid comments on the Apple computers by a
user with a wide focus on things they do with it. They seem to be
interested in security and privacy, Apple I mean.

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:56:35 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/19/2018 11:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:54:08 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill wrote:

I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
isn't intended to be a loss-leader.

And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
you have a process that can be parallelized.

You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
notable with graphics.



AND way back when, when processing twice as fast meant something
meaningful, 5 seconds to process vs 10 seconds, that was a very
noticeable improvement.

Today cutting a half second processing time to one quarter second is not
noticeable.

I remember boot time taking up to 7 minutes on one of my od computers.
Blame HP printer software for half of that time. Today my 7 year old
custom built computer boots off if a SSD and takes 15-30 seconds.

When processing movies and converting them as well, the newest systems
cuts off minutes, some 30 minutes of better. I can remember a time
where I would basically have to dedicate a whole computer for a day to
process videos.

Even when compiling programs I hate to wait, although I hardly ever do
that anymore.

Now I complain about paint drying, or the time it takes for shellac to
really truly cure before the next coat.

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:43:04 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

J. Clarke writes:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:14:50 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 7/18/2018 10:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.

Windows and mission-critical should never be used in the same sentence.

Well, don't apply to work in our company then.

Very happy to never apply to work for your company. APL? yeesh.

APL is a great STEM language but it should never be used to build
applications.

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:30:49 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 7/20/2018 9:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
J. Clarke writes:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:46:13 GMT, Puckdropper
wrote:

Jack wrote in news

Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
Gates should be in jail just for that alone.


Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry

It's a great example of scope creep. It's a good idea on its face, they
just went overboard storing stuff in it.

Actually, all user-specific or hardware-specific configuration
information is _supposed_ to go there. What makes it a mess is the
idiot developers who store user-specific information in the hardware
part and vice versa.

The idea is that you log into a different machine with a different
processor and different video and different everything else, your
configuration, your application settings, etc, all go with you, all in
one neat little file.

That's the major complaint. "one neat little file".

Give me unix style configuration files (ASCII, one per subsystem)
any day.


+1

UNIX, the worlds greatest OS, undoubtedly inspired by god, or God if
you're a believer.

OK, tell us how, in unix, you transfer a user's settings from an Alpha
to an Itanium. Don't just say "copy files". Which specific files do
you copy and how do you know that those are the ones?

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:23:23 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 7/19/2018 5:46 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Jack wrote in news

Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
Gates should be in jail just for that alone.


Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
...
Insufficient number (204) of "sorry's snipped for brevity...

It's a great example of scope creep.

Probably right, but not sure what scope creep is. Gets worse as you add
to it?

It's a good idea on its face, they
just went overboard storing stuff in it.

I don't think the registry was ever a good idea, not on it's face, back,
knees or sitting on it's butt. It was either designed by morons (most
likely) or by geniuses (most UNlikely) hell bent on making a tangled
mess that would insure hordes of (computer) illiterates would buy tons
of virus software and indeed even new computers after the tangle
overwhelmed them, their hardware and software. It's pretty much the
reason tar and feathers was invented.

What does virus software have to do with the registry?

So, rather than scope creep, I think it's a great example of building on
a foundation of crap. If the foundation sucks, the top floors will also
suck. It's not just the registry either, it's pretty much everything
Microsoft. Dos, Win and there apps are all poorly designed from the
bottom up. With weak foundations, you get crap.

Propose an alternative design that addresses the same problem. Don't
say "text files in etc" until you are prepared to explain how to
distinguish, in an automated manner, across multiple hardware
architectures, you can diistinguish between those files that are
specific to that particular computer and have to be different on a
different computer, files that are specific to a user but should be
the same on every computer he uses, files that are necessary to the
network architecture that is being used and should be the same on
every computer on the network, and files that are hardware specific
and need to be the same on every computer with that hardware
architecture.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:48:49 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:18:54 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
wrote:

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).

Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.* More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.* Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything.* I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast.* Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!

I'll say.* I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so.* I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly.* The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection.* Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429)* I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.

NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update.* I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?

I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.

I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.

Both operating systems are fine and well supported.

Bob

Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?

I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
open to hacking, virii, or system failures.

So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
system other than their outrageous pricing.

I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
reasons.

The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
week.

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.

John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
it to work.

Not on my work machine I can't. That's controlled by the IT
department.

And there are times when we don't _have_ "off hours". There are
programs that take a couple of days to run--if an update decides to
install and dog down the machine, that could turn into a couple of
weeks, and if it decides to force a reboot ten minutes before that
process is done then we've lost two days, against a tight deadline.

Now as to it hogging your traffic on a large update, I don't know. It
can create communication problems if they both occur at the same time.

It's not just hogging traffic. Every now and then I notice that, for
example, Excel is taking forever to respond. When that happens I
reboot the machine and sure enough it wants to finish updating.

Under win updates you can schedule your active hours.
under advanced update options you can shut off automatically
downloading of updates, with subsequent setup getting ready to reboot
and do the actual install.

My "active hours" at work are the months of June and September.

PLUS, under advanced/advanced options you can even setup how you would
like things to occur, even the downloading of files.

How I would like things to occur is that when I am in a period when I
can afford to have the computer not work, I download and install
updates. That they don't allow unless I block Microsoft in my
firewall.

Biggest drawback to all of this, is not updating your system in a
timely fashion, or skipping daily update checks and be caught with
your pants down when a serious hack is in operation.

When a "serious hack" gets through the network firewall then I'll
worry about it. I have never had a machine that I use hacked. And if
having them behind a cheap Netgear or Linksys firewall provides that
degree of protection then I'm pretty sure that the stuff our IT
department uses provides the same degree of protection.

The biggest things you can do to prevent being hacked are to use a
real firewall and don't run in administrator mode. The constant
untested updates are as likely to introduce a vulnerability as to fix
one, or aren't you aware that Windows updates are distributed to most
users at the pre-beta stage?

Hope some of this helps you.

What would help me is Microsoft letting me make my own decisions about
what I want to install on my computer.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:14:43 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:54:08 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill wrote:

I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
isn't intended to be a loss-leader.

And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
you have a process that can be parallelized.

You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
notable with graphics.

Our old machines had Intel graphics, our new machines have Intel
graphics. If graphics mattered to us we would have nvidia.

As for responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, there are times
when we have all cores of the machine running 100% for hours at a
time. We work these machines hard. The only significant performance
gain in our new machines is that they have two more cores than the old
machines--that gets us a performance boost but to get the two more
cores we had to get management approval for the enhanced
configuration--if we had just gone with the ordinary refresh we would
have had the same number of cores as previously.

On 7/21/2018 7:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:48:49 -0700, OFWW
wrote:
....

John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
it to work.

Not on my work machine I can't. That's controlled by the IT
department.

And there are times when we don't _have_ "off hours". There are
programs that take a couple of days to run--if an update decides to
install and dog down the machine, that could turn into a couple of
weeks, and if it decides to force a reboot ten minutes before that
process is done then we've lost two days, against a tight deadline.
....

That's a management problem in IT not being in synch with production --
a common complaint and one I saw all the time in consulting. Sometimes
one could educate upper management and get something done; other times
"not so much", unfortunately. IT departments are extremely good at
using the fear factor to be able to browbeat technically unsophisticated
managers.

What would help me is Microsoft letting me make my own decisions about
what I want to install on my computer.

There's the rub, too -- MS doesn't like the idea that anything is
"yours", whether it's the OS, Office applications, or even the computer
itself. From their viewpoint it's all "theirs".

Unfortunately, the mindset is growing amongst all the other vendors as
well as they see the only way to maintain revenue stream is by forcible
means--once applications are "good enough" there's no incentive to
upgrade so the only recourse is obsolescence or subscription.

--

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 09:12:07 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/21/2018 7:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:48:49 -0700, OFWW
wrote:
...

John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
it to work.

Not on my work machine I can't. That's controlled by the IT
department.

And there are times when we don't _have_ "off hours". There are
programs that take a couple of days to run--if an update decides to
install and dog down the machine, that could turn into a couple of
weeks, and if it decides to force a reboot ten minutes before that
process is done then we've lost two days, against a tight deadline.
...

That's a management problem in IT not being in synch with production --
a common complaint and one I saw all the time in consulting. Sometimes
one could educate upper management and get something done; other times
"not so much", unfortunately. IT departments are extremely good at
using the fear factor to be able to browbeat technically unsophisticated
managers.

Yes, we know it's IT's fault. But we can't _do_ anything about it
until IT causes a real disaster.

What would help me is Microsoft letting me make my own decisions about
what I want to install on my computer.

There's the rub, too -- MS doesn't like the idea that anything is
"yours", whether it's the OS, Office applications, or even the computer
itself. From their viewpoint it's all "theirs".

That's the real issue.

Unfortunately, the mindset is growing amongst all the other vendors as
well as they see the only way to maintain revenue stream is by forcible
means--once applications are "good enough" there's no incentive to
upgrade so the only recourse is obsolescence or subscription.

Unfortunately. Eventually the open source competitors _should_ be
able to match the feature set, however they tend to denigrate features
that are mainly useful to managers and administrators, so that's not
likely to happen.

J. Clarke writes:
On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:30:49 -0400, Jack wrote:


UNIX, the worlds greatest OS, undoubtedly inspired by god, or God if
you're a believer.

OK, tell us how, in unix, you transfer a user's settings from an Alpha
to an Itanium. Don't just say "copy files". Which specific files do
you copy and how do you know that those are the ones?

Copy the home directory, of course. All the user settings are
in 'dot' files in the home directory.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 09:04:15 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:14:43 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:54:08 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill wrote:

I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.

It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
isn't intended to be a loss-leader.

And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
you have a process that can be parallelized.

You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
notable with graphics.

Our old machines had Intel graphics, our new machines have Intel
graphics. If graphics mattered to us we would have nvidia.


Intel does have the option of nice graphics suitable for gamers and
video processing, although my favorite has always been Nvidia.

As for responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, there are times
when we have all cores of the machine running 100% for hours at a
time. We work these machines hard. The only significant performance
gain in our new machines is that they have two more cores than the old
machines--that gets us a performance boost but to get the two more
cores we had to get management approval for the enhanced
configuration--if we had just gone with the ordinary refresh we would
have had the same number of cores as previously.

Are you running your db's and spreadsheets locally?

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 08:56:50 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:48:49 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:18:54 -0400, J. Clarke
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
wrote:

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
(or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
point it's too late).

Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.* More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.* Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything.* I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
fast.* Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
Good luck!

I'll say.* I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so.* I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly.* The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection.* Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429)* I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground.

NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update.* I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?

I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.

I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.

Both operating systems are fine and well supported.

Bob

Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?

I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
open to hacking, virii, or system failures.

So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
system other than their outrageous pricing.

I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
reasons.

The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
week.

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.

John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
it to work.

Not on my work machine I can't. That's controlled by the IT
department.


Oh, sorry, thought you were speaking of your home machine.

And there are times when we don't _have_ "off hours". There are
programs that take a couple of days to run--if an update decides to
install and dog down the machine, that could turn into a couple of
weeks, and if it decides to force a reboot ten minutes before that
process is done then we've lost two days, against a tight deadline.


That certainly constitutes an "OUCH"! Without knowing your work
environment and IT policies, and server availability I can't say
anything more, other than wonder why they don't at least off load that
work to cloud severs with very low costs and no downtime locally.

Now as to it hogging your traffic on a large update, I don't know. It
can create communication problems if they both occur at the same time.

It's not just hogging traffic. Every now and then I notice that, for
example, Excel is taking forever to respond. When that happens I
reboot the machine and sure enough it wants to finish updating.


WHOA! I'd be seriously complaining at the next conference meeting.

Under win updates you can schedule your active hours.
under advanced update options you can shut off automatically
downloading of updates, with subsequent setup getting ready to reboot
and do the actual install.

My "active hours" at work are the months of June and September.

PLUS, under advanced/advanced options you can even setup how you would
like things to occur, even the downloading of files.

How I would like things to occur is that when I am in a period when I
can afford to have the computer not work, I download and install
updates. That they don't allow unless I block Microsoft in my
firewall.

Biggest drawback to all of this, is not updating your system in a
timely fashion, or skipping daily update checks and be caught with
your pants down when a serious hack is in operation.

When a "serious hack" gets through the network firewall then I'll
worry about it. I have never had a machine that I use hacked. And if
having them behind a cheap Netgear or Linksys firewall provides that
degree of protection then I'm pretty sure that the stuff our IT
department uses provides the same degree of protection.


Given your description of how they do other things, I wouldn't be
counting on it.

The biggest things you can do to prevent being hacked are to use a
real firewall and don't run in administrator mode. The constant
untested updates are as likely to introduce a vulnerability as to fix
one, or aren't you aware that Windows updates are distributed to most
users at the pre-beta stage?

Hope some of this helps you.

What would help me is Microsoft letting me make my own decisions about
what I want to install on my computer.

Yet you said that was under the control of your IT people.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 09:12:07 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 7/21/2018 7:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:48:49 -0700, OFWW
wrote:
...

John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
it to work.

Not on my work machine I can't. That's controlled by the IT
department.

And there are times when we don't _have_ "off hours". There are
programs that take a couple of days to run--if an update decides to
install and dog down the machine, that could turn into a couple of
weeks, and if it decides to force a reboot ten minutes before that
process is done then we've lost two days, against a tight deadline.
...

That's a management problem in IT not being in synch with production --
a common complaint and one I saw all the time in consulting. Sometimes
one could educate upper management and get something done; other times
"not so much", unfortunately. IT departments are extremely good at
using the fear factor to be able to browbeat technically unsophisticated
managers.

What would help me is Microsoft letting me make my own decisions about
what I want to install on my computer.

There's the rub, too -- MS doesn't like the idea that anything is
"yours", whether it's the OS, Office applications, or even the computer
itself. From their viewpoint it's all "theirs".

Unfortunately, the mindset is growing amongst all the other vendors as
well as they see the only way to maintain revenue stream is by forcible
means--once applications are "good enough" there's no incentive to
upgrade so the only recourse is obsolescence or subscription.

Subscription, there's the rub. Nickel and dime you to death, mixed
with promises.