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#41
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Say Good Bye to the Hitachi Name
On 3/16/2018 10:49 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote: Wah!Â* I can't afford Festool!Â* Good grief, they're not comparable at all. I bought myself a belt/disk sander for Christmas on sale for $80. That's my idea of fun.Â* : )Â* If it turns out I really use it, I can always upgrade it. And that is kind of an expensive sander. If you really use it? Why buy it if you do not have a use for it? Unfortunately almost all of us have bought a neat tool, because it was cool, and then never use it. ;~) I have one of those belt/disk sanders too, it was given to me. Because I mostly build furniture it is way too small to be useful. I do have a 12" disk sander that is great for smoothing convex curves, rounding corners, and shortening Domino tenons to name a few. Oh and also putting the round profile on the drawer pulls that I make. |
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#42
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Say Good Bye to the Hitachi Name
Leon wrote:
On 3/16/2018 10:49 PM, Bill wrote: wrote: Wah!Â* I can't afford Festool!Â* Good grief, they're not comparable at all. I bought myself a belt/disk sander for Christmas on sale for $80. That's my idea of fun.Â* : )Â* If it turns out I really use it, I can always upgrade it. And that is kind of an expensive sander.Â* If you really use it?Â* Why buy it if you do not have a use for it? Come spring, when I unpack it I will learn better what it can, or perhaps cannot, do. I hope my 6" disk sander can do some of the things that you use your 12" disk sander for. If the belt works on metal, that will be nice. Along with the tool will come the learning...try to buy "learning" anywhere these days for $80! ; ) Unfortunately almost all of us have bought a neat tool, because it was cool, and then never use it. My toolbox has paid for itself many times over and continues to do so. Every once in while I buy it "gifts". : ) Bill ;~)Â* I have one of those belt/disk sanders too, it was given to me. Because I mostly build furniture it is way too small to be useful.Â* I do have a 12" disk sander that is great for smoothing convex curves, rounding corners, and shortening Domino tenons to name a few.Â* Oh and also putting the round profile on the drawer pulls that I make. |
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#44
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Say Good Bye to the Hitachi Name
On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 2:56:13 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote: On 3/16/2018 10:49 PM, Bill wrote: wrote: Wah!Â* I can't afford Festool!Â* Good grief, they're not comparable at all. I bought myself a belt/disk sander for Christmas on sale for $80. That's my idea of fun.Â* : )Â* If it turns out I really use it, I can always upgrade it. And that is kind of an expensive sander.Â* If you really use it?Â* Why buy it if you do not have a use for it? Come spring, when I unpack it I will learn better what it can, or perhaps cannot, do. I hope my 6" disk sander can do some of the things that you use your 12" disk sander for. If the belt works on metal, that will be nice. Along with the tool will come the learning...try to buy "learning" anywhere these days for $80! ; ) At $80, one of the things that you might learn is that it's pretty easy to stall. DAMHIKT |
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#45
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Say Good Bye to the Hitachi Name
On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 12:17:35 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote: On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote: On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 11:30:57 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote: wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:04:24 -0400, Bill wrote: wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill wrote: Markem wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote: wrote: Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools. If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools), as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools. Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here. Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy. The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely buy from Amazon, or even gack eBay. After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop. Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly isn't unique, either. Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin. That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only. Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in an area. OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more. That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, I think. My point was that there may be a comparable profit between the two. The retailer in the not-so-expensive area can't sell as many units but he doesn't have to. The opposite is also likely. However, there isn't a lot of incentive to sell (buy, really) in the other's territory. As far as I'm concerned, they can sell them for whatever they want since I'm not in their target audience. I watched some interesting videos on YouTube this week, for car salesman, on "Closing the sale and getting the sticker price". Festool's philosophy appears to be not so much different. Car case: Product has an MSRP on the sticker. The S stands for "suggested". Suggested implies negotiable. A slimy sales dweep talks some poor slug into paying full price. The next customer is more savvy than the last. (S)he buys the same car for thousands less. Festool case: That's the price. Non-negotiable. The salesman says "Would you like to buy it?" How are those things "not so much different"? The manufacturer is playing the role of the "slimy sales dweep"? No, they are not. Festool's policy is clear and upfront. There is no MSRP on their label, there is only an MRP. Take it or leave it. Nothing slimy about that and everyone pays the same price - if they want to. Customer's choice, clear and simple. I bet "Bill" never goes into a restaurant, even a McDs. Or even a grocery store, for that matter. Contracts must scare the crap outa him (though since he never eats...). Slimy is the guy that shows the customer an "invoice" and says "Look, see? I'm only making $200 on this vehicle." Or the guy who insists on telling other people how they must run their business. |
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#46
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Say Good Bye to the Hitachi Name
wrote:
On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 12:17:35 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote: On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote: On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 11:30:57 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote: wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:04:24 -0400, Bill wrote: wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill wrote: Markem wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote: wrote: Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools. If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools), as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools. Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here. Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy. The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely buy from Amazon, or even gack eBay. After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop. Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly isn't unique, either. Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin. That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only. Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in an area. OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more. That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, I think. My point was that there may be a comparable profit between the two. The retailer in the not-so-expensive area can't sell as many units but he doesn't have to. The opposite is also likely. However, there isn't a lot of incentive to sell (buy, really) in the other's territory. As far as I'm concerned, they can sell them for whatever they want since I'm not in their target audience. I watched some interesting videos on YouTube this week, for car salesman, on "Closing the sale and getting the sticker price". Festool's philosophy appears to be not so much different. Car case: Product has an MSRP on the sticker. The S stands for "suggested". Suggested implies negotiable. A slimy sales dweep talks some poor slug into paying full price. The next customer is more savvy than the last. (S)he buys the same car for thousands less. Festool case: That's the price. Non-negotiable. The salesman says "Would you like to buy it?" How are those things "not so much different"? The manufacturer is playing the role of the "slimy sales dweep"? No, they are not. Festool's policy is clear and upfront. There is no MSRP on their label, there is only an MRP. Take it or leave it. Nothing slimy about that and everyone pays the same price - if they want to. Customer's choice, clear and simple. I bet "Bill" never goes into a restaurant, even a McDs. Or even a grocery store, for that matter. Contracts must scare the crap outa him (though since he never eats...). You're posting a lot of assumptions about me. You're full of $hit. |
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#47
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Say Good Bye to the Hitachi Name
On 3/17/2018 1:56 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote: On 3/16/2018 10:49 PM, Bill wrote: wrote: Wah!Â* I can't afford Festool!Â* Good grief, they're not comparable at all. I bought myself a belt/disk sander for Christmas on sale for $80. That's my idea of fun.Â* : )Â* If it turns out I really use it, I can always upgrade it. And that is kind of an expensive sander.Â* If you really use it?Â* Why buy it if you do not have a use for it? Come spring, when I unpack it I will learn better what it can,Â* or perhaps cannot, do.Â* I hope my 6" disk sander can do some of the things that you use your 12" disk sander for. Not likely, but don't take that the wrong way. I use the outer edge of the disk sander. Soooo the outer perimeter speed is much faster than the one on a 6" sander. The larger and probably much heavier disk will cut through wood with little effort. If both disks are turning the same RPM my 12" disk will be cutting twice as fast and the paper will be lasting twice as long. And with the 12" cast iron disk it takes a lot of pressure to slow it down. I would love to have an even larger disk sander. If the belt works on metal, that will be nice.Â* Along with the tool will come the learning...try to buy "learning" anywhere these days for $80!Â* ; ) The belt is good for rough sanding and or shaping. Unfortunately almost all of us have bought a neat tool, because it was cool, and then never use it. My toolbox has paid for itself many times over and continues to do so. Every once in while I buy it "gifts".Â* : ) ;~) |
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#48
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Say Good Bye to the Hitachi Name
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 01:11:24 -0400, Bill wrote:
wrote: On Sat, 17 Mar 2018 12:17:35 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03 wrote: On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 1:43:38 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote: DerbyDad03 wrote: On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 11:30:57 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote: wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 23:04:24 -0400, Bill wrote: wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 21:09:27 -0400, Bill wrote: Markem wrote: On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:16:45 -0400, wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2018 23:51:44 -0700 (PDT), " wrote: On Thursday, March 15, 2018 at 10:39:37 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote: wrote: Just imagine if GM or Ford or Fiat told every car dealer selling their brand that they will only sell the cars/trucks for the price on the sticker. No dickering, no bargaining with customers. If you do then your car dealer lot will be closed before the sun sets and every car will be taken back and you will be sued in court. I'm guessing this is illegal in the USA for cars. But somehow its allowed for tools. If they were the only tool supplier, I believe things would be different. Festool does not have a monopoly (except on Festool tools), as there are plenty of suitably-equivalent tools. Not sure what you mean. Ford, GM, Fiat all make cars/trucks that compete with each other. Add in Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, Hundai, Kia from Asia. And add in BMW, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Audi, Volvo from Europe. No car dealer has a monopoly. But you can and do negotiate an individual price from every car dealer for every brand. DeWalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Porter Cable all have different prices for every tool from all the different vendors selling these brands. Only Festool has one price no matter who sells it. It is the oddball out here. Remember Saturn? They tried the one price fits all. There's nothing stopping Ford from doing it, except bankruptcy. The reason Festool controls price is that it entices their retailers to sell by service, rather than price. It's why I buy from Highland rather than Amazon (or even Woodcraft). Highland does a better job of stocking and selling. OTOH, if I could save a Franklin, I'd likely buy from Amazon, or even gack eBay. After rereading your post I think I might grasp what you are saying. Maybe. But how can Festool control its retailers and no other company or product in the USA can exercise the same control? If Festool owned, controlled everyone who sells its products, then yes they can dictate prices. But all of the vendors for Festool are privately owned businesses. They are not Festool owned sellers, distributors. All of these companies sell Festool and a thousand other items. And I'm sure they compete on price with everyone else on all these other items. I guess SawStop is similar to Festool. I think, not positive, that SawStop also dictates a price for every saw they sell and that is the price. No competition for SawStop on price. Odd that Festool now owns SawStop. Others don't *choose* to control their retailers. Festool certainly isn't unique, either. Having a set retail price also offers the retailer a set margin. That would make more sense to me if the product was sold online only. Certainly the costs to be retailer in CA differ from those in OH, and the former could probably deal with the higher margins better. Think of the cost of the tool as a percentage of the price of a typical house in an area. OTOH, where housing prices are high, wages tend to also be high. High wages allow high-priced toys so they may sell more. That's exactly the point I was making. Maybe it would make sense to retail some for less in OH where the cost of conducting business isn't as high... That's sort of the equilibrium for an unregulated market, I think. My point was that there may be a comparable profit between the two. The retailer in the not-so-expensive area can't sell as many units but he doesn't have to. The opposite is also likely. However, there isn't a lot of incentive to sell (buy, really) in the other's territory. As far as I'm concerned, they can sell them for whatever they want since I'm not in their target audience. I watched some interesting videos on YouTube this week, for car salesman, on "Closing the sale and getting the sticker price". Festool's philosophy appears to be not so much different. Car case: Product has an MSRP on the sticker. The S stands for "suggested". Suggested implies negotiable. A slimy sales dweep talks some poor slug into paying full price. The next customer is more savvy than the last. (S)he buys the same car for thousands less. Festool case: That's the price. Non-negotiable. The salesman says "Would you like to buy it?" How are those things "not so much different"? The manufacturer is playing the role of the "slimy sales dweep"? No, they are not. Festool's policy is clear and upfront. There is no MSRP on their label, there is only an MRP. Take it or leave it. Nothing slimy about that and everyone pays the same price - if they want to. Customer's choice, clear and simple. I bet "Bill" never goes into a restaurant, even a McDs. Or even a grocery store, for that matter. Contracts must scare the crap outa him (though since he never eats...). You're posting a lot of assumptions about me. You're full of $hit. I didn't want to think that you were just stupid but that's the only other option. |
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