On 1/20/18 11:38 AM, Leon wrote:
On 1/20/2018 11:32 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/20/18 11:15 AM, Leon wrote:
On 1/20/2018 8:58 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:


On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
clamping tools.Â* I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
But they are around a quarter of that.Â*Â* If one breaks, I can
still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Except that they break when you *need* them, not when they're hanging
on the wall looking pretty.Â* If I can't trust a tool, I don't want it
around.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
problems.Â* Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?

Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty".Â* They didn't bend.Â* The damned
thins broke, with just moderate pressure.Â* My Irwin Quick Clamps will
do 10x the clamping force.Â* ...and they aren't designed for such.

I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would
not need so much force.Â* If you have to jam them together, something
is wrong with the joint.

This is true but if you are gluing up a table top that is 5~8' long
it is difficult to get a perfectly straight edge.Â* Not even plywood
has straight edges these days.Â* Not unusual for a board to be
straight this morning and bowed a bit this afternoon, depending on
the humidity.


Or they bow after planing.Â* You can't keep going back to the jointer
or table saw to correct every little warp. Sometimes, you wouldn't
have any board left.

In any case, or in the case of perfectly straight and flat boards for a

panel glue-up, what good is a clamp like this....
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG

Hopefully you were not checking that clamp with a Harbor Freight square.
Â*;~)


Don't be silly.
If I checked it with a HF square, it would be square. :-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

"Dr. Deb" wrote in message
...

Bar clamps shouldn't be "light duty". They didn't bend. The damned
thins broke, with just moderate pressure. My Irwin Quick Clamps will
do 10x the clamping force. ...and they aren't designed for such.

I hate to say this, but if your joints were made better, you would not
need so much force. If you have to jam them together, something is wrong
with the joint.

It rather depends upon what you are gluing up. If it is a 42" x 96"
tabletop I suspect you will find that the edges are not perfect and need
some force to close.

On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 12:06:08 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/20/18 11:38 AM, Leon wrote:

Hopefully you were not checking that clamp with a Harbor Freight square..
Â*;~)


Don't be silly.
If I checked it with a HF square, it would be square. :-p

I can hear Ed McMahon and his "Hiyo!" with a rim shot!

I have those same HF clamps and used them for about 3 or 4 glue ups. I spotted one that was out of square right away so I marked it and used it for plywood framing glue ups, etc. Oddly, it held up. The others? Even in light use, after the mentioned 3 or 4 glue ups the little balls inside the clamp head on the end of the screw just fell off.

I don't trust them so I don't use them. I don't know why I don't throw them away.

Sadly, these used to be a great HF product.

https://www.harborfreight.com/10-in-...amp-60549.html

I have a couple left that continue to serve and they are just as good as their domestic counterparts. But the newer versions aren't nearly as well made and even some of the wood parts are cracked before purchase. I rarely use that style clamp, but still, I wish I had bought a few more.

Robert

On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news
On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
clamping tools.Â* I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But
they are around a quarter of that.Â*Â* If one breaks, I can
still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


What's alight duty clamp, though.

Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al.Â* If anything, I'd
say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier.Â* I use them to
clamp all manner of things.

And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
degrees to the bar.

IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
is applied.Â* That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
clamp head perpendicular to the work.


I'm not sure what you're talking about.Â* The above doesn't make a lot of
sense to me.
Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the issue.
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG

The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
pressure at all.
With pressure applied, it gets worse.
This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
defective as to its sole purpose.


Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
the bottom).

See above.

They just aren't worth the money to me anymore.Â* Not with the
hassles that come with using them.Â* About all I can use them for
is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.

Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
stick with HF.


Been down that road and haven't looked back.Â* Have fun.
I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
basic intended functions.


Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't have
an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I take my
cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.

--
Jeff

On 1/20/18 3:27 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
clamping tools.Â* I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
But they are around a quarter of that.Â*Â* If one breaks, I can
still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


What's alight duty clamp, though.

Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al.Â* If anything, I'd
say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier.Â* I use them to
clamp all manner of things.

And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
degrees to the bar.

IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
is applied.Â* That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
clamp head perpendicular to the work.


I'm not sure what you're talking about.Â* The above doesn't make a lot of
sense to me.
Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the issue.
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG

The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
pressure at all.
With pressure applied, it gets worse.
This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
defective as to its sole purpose.


Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
the bottom).

See above.

They just aren't worth the money to me anymore.Â* Not with the
hassles that come with using them.Â* About all I can use them for
is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.

Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
stick with HF.


Been down that road and haven't looked back.Â* Have fun.
I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
basic intended functions.


Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't have
an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I take my
cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.


Mine are all out of square. Maybe they've improved them. That would be
awesome.
FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend "into
square" under pressure.
I don't know that's a bull**** answer to cover a faulty product or not.
But that's what they say.

Nice pencil sharpener!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/20/2018 4:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/20/18 3:27 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
clamping tools.Â* I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
But they are around a quarter of that.Â*Â* If one breaks, I can
still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


What's alight duty clamp, though.

Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al.Â* If anything, I'd
say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier.Â* I use them to
clamp all manner of things.

And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
degrees to the bar.

IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
is applied.Â* That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
clamp head perpendicular to the work.


I'm not sure what you're talking about.Â* The above doesn't make a lot of
sense to me.
Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
issue.
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG

The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
pressure at all.
With pressure applied, it gets worse.
This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
defective as to its sole purpose.


Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
the bottom).

See above.

They just aren't worth the money to me anymore.Â* Not with the
hassles that come with using them.Â* About all I can use them for
is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.

Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
stick with HF.


Been down that road and haven't looked back.Â* Have fun.
I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
basic intended functions.


Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't
have an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I
take my cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.


Mine are all out of square.Â* Maybe they've improved them.Â* That would be
awesome.
FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend "into
square" under pressure.
I don't know that's a bull**** answer to cover a faulty product or not.
But that's what they say.

Nice pencil sharpener!




All of these aluminum bar clamps bend easily compared to the steel bar
clamps.

On Sat, 20 Jan 2018 13:17:40 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 12:06:08 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/20/18 11:38 AM, Leon wrote:

Hopefully you were not checking that clamp with a Harbor Freight square.
*;~)


Don't be silly.
If I checked it with a HF square, it would be square. :-p

I can hear Ed McMahon and his "Hiyo!" with a rim shot!

;-)

I have those same HF clamps and used them for about 3 or 4 glue ups. I spotted one that was out of square right away so I marked it and used it for plywood framing glue ups, etc. Oddly, it held up. The others? Even in light use, after the mentioned 3 or 4 glue ups the little balls inside the clamp head on the end of the screw just fell off.

I don't trust them so I don't use them. I don't know why I don't throw them away.

Sadly, these used to be a great HF product.

https://www.harborfreight.com/10-in-...amp-60549.html

I have a couple left that continue to serve and they are just as good as their domestic counterparts. But the newer versions aren't nearly as well made and even some of the wood parts are cracked before purchase. I rarely use that style clamp, but still, I wish I had bought a few more.

Rockler has a really good sale on these, occasionally.

-MIKE- wrote in news

Mine are all out of square. Maybe they've improved them. That would
be awesome.
FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend
"into square" under pressure.
I don't know that's a bull**** answer to cover a faulty product or
not. But that's what they say.

Nice pencil sharpener!



Imagine a trapezoid. If your clamps toe in, so the bar is the long side
of the trapezoid, the clamps will have their greatest pressure at the top
of the clamp. That will reduce the chance of the clamp squeezing things
out or slipping as pressure applies. Now if the bar is the short size of
the clamp, the clamp will tend to squeeze things out as pressure is
applied.

They will bend towards square, but the actual angle will be limited by
your work.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On 1/18/2018 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/18/18 4:02 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news
On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
clamping tools.Â* I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But
they are around a quarter of that.Â*Â* If one breaks, I can
still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no problems.
Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over
stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


What's alight duty clamp, though.

Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al.Â* If anything, I'd
say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier.Â* I use them to
clamp all manner of things.

And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
degrees to the bar.

IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
is applied.Â* That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
clamp head perpendicular to the work.


I'm not sure what you're talking about.Â* The above doesn't make a lot of
sense to me.
Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
issue.
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG

It might make more sense if you were talking about quick release
clamps like
this...
https://shop.harborfreight.com/media...37_zzz_500.jpg



It might make more sense if you read the subject line and look at that
clamp.


The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
pressure at all.
With pressure applied, it gets worse.
This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
defective as to its sole purpose.

It really doesn't matter if the jaw is at 90 degrees or not as long as
you
can set the clamp so that the area applying the pressure is where you
want
it.

No special technique or tool modification needed.


Wow.
I don't even know how to reply to that with anything other than laughter.
Just never mind.Â* You go ahead and use them and enjoy.


Actually Mike, glue a dowel onto that pad, that will ride centered on a
3/4 piece of wood. It will center the pressure every time and save the
clamp.. Or thow it away. Or strip it for parts.

--
Jeff

On 1/20/2018 5:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/20/18 3:27 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
clamping tools.Â* I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
But they are around a quarter of that.Â*Â* If one breaks, I can
still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


What's alight duty clamp, though.

Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al.Â* If anything, I'd
say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier.Â* I use them to
clamp all manner of things.

And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
degrees to the bar.

IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
is applied.Â* That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
clamp head perpendicular to the work.


I'm not sure what you're talking about.Â* The above doesn't make a lot of
sense to me.
Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
issue.
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG

The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
pressure at all.
With pressure applied, it gets worse.
This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
defective as to its sole purpose.


Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
the bottom).

See above.

They just aren't worth the money to me anymore.Â* Not with the
hassles that come with using them.Â* About all I can use them for
is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.

Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
stick with HF.


Been down that road and haven't looked back.Â* Have fun.
I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
basic intended functions.


Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't
have an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I
take my cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.


Mine are all out of square.Â* Maybe they've improved them.Â* That would be
awesome.
FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend "into
square" under pressure.
I don't know that's a bull**** answer to cover a faulty product or not.
But that's what they say.

Nice pencil sharpener!


Mine are about 20 years old. The Jet and HF bow way out of square more
like yours when over torqued. It's just why they are light duty.

It has its purpose. Mostly I use the electric one, but sometimes I use
that manual one to chamfer a dowel.

--
Jeff

On 1/20/2018 6:16 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/20/2018 4:05 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/20/18 3:27 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/18/2018 3:34 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
clamping tools.Â* I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
But they are around a quarter of that.Â*Â* If one breaks, I can
still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


What's alight duty clamp, though.

Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al.Â* If anything, I'd
say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier.Â* I use them to
clamp all manner of things.

And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
degrees to the bar.

IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
is applied.Â* That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
clamp head perpendicular to the work.


I'm not sure what you're talking about.Â* The above doesn't make a
lot of
sense to me.
Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
issue.
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG

The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
pressure at all.
With pressure applied, it gets worse.
This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
defective as to its sole purpose.


Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces
don't stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge
of the plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on
the bottom).

See above.

They just aren't worth the money to me anymore.Â* Not with the
hassles that come with using them.Â* About all I can use them for
is supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.

Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll
stick with HF.


Been down that road and haven't looked back.Â* Have fun.
I'd rather spend my time making stuff than having to modify tools or
techniques involved in using them just to get them to do their most
basic intended functions.


Well Mikey, you got a bad one.
Here's mine and a Jet for comparison.
https://imgur.com/a/LbA3r
The jet bend out of shape real fast, the HF is much better. I don't
have an issue with them as used. When I need a heavy duty clamp, I
take my cabinet masters or Bessey K body's out. Or a pipe clamp.


Mine are all out of square.Â* Maybe they've improved them.Â* That would
be awesome.
FWIW, if you ask Jet about that, they'll tell you is so they bend
"into square" under pressure.
I don't know that's a bull**** answer to cover a faulty product or
not. But that's what they say.

Nice pencil sharpener!




All of these aluminum bar clamps bend easily compared to the steel bar
clamps.
+1

--
Jeff

On 1/18/2018 8:34 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:14 -0500, "dadiOH" wrote:


"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news
On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping
tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still
buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


What's alight duty clamp, though.

Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release clamps
and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd say the the hf
ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to clamp all manner of
things.

Not sure what a "quick release" clamp is (that's what the HF bar
clamps do when the casting breaks ;-) but the HF clamps like the Irwin
Gorilla using a wine glass
Quick Clamps aren't worth spit, either. It's not that they're light
duty. They wouldn't work as paper clips.
So only Festool, Fein , Bessey are tools worthy?


And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90 degrees to
the bar.

IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure is
applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly positioned on
the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the clamp head perpendicular
to the work.

Bessey K-Body clamps are pretty good. Even my Irwin Heaavy Duty Quick
Clamps are a *lot* better. In fact the Irwins are the go-to setup
clamps.

So the word Heavy Duty doesn't mean a thing to you? You consider the
light duty not up to the task, because they don't do what the heavy are
capable of?

Even if you're only edge banding plywood shelves, if the jaw faces don't
stay straight, they will try to pull the banding off the edge of the
plywood or at least put uneven pressure (more pressure on the bottom).

See above.

They just aren't worth the money to me anymore. Not with the hassles
that come with using them. About all I can use them for is
supplementary clamping after real parallel clamps are in place.

Your money, of course, but at 1/3 the cost or less of others, I'll stick
with HF.

I once thought so. If they were worth the shipping, I'd send the lot
to you. I'l never use them again.



--
Jeff

On 1/18/2018 12:39 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:13:26 -0800 (PST)
"Dr. Deb" wrote:

problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


very possible

unreasonable expectations are common with consumers
+1

on a similar note amazon is weeding out some of these consumers that
send too many things back
Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in effect
becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I am not a
shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very noticeable.
This will have repercussions in the building industry.

not sure if hf will do that too but they might because that can dig
into the bottom line in a big way




--
Jeff

On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 1/18/2018 12:39 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 08:13:26 -0800 (PST)
"Dr. Deb" wrote:

problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


very possible

unreasonable expectations are common with consumers
+1

on a similar note amazon is weeding out some of these consumers that
send too many things back
Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in effect
becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I am not a
shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very noticeable.
This will have repercussions in the building industry.

I suspect that Amazon's attempt at world conquest is going to end in
their overextending themselves and collapsing.

Reading about what they're doing with Whole Foods it sounds like they
have about as much clue about selling retail foods as Elon Musk does
about running a car factory.

On 1/21/18 9:23 AM, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/18/2018 5:40 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/18/18 4:02 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news On 1/18/18 1:53 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03
wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive
clamping tools.Â* I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them. But
they are around a quarter of that.Â*Â* If one breaks, I can
still buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
problems.
Could it be that those who are having the problems are simply over
stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


What's alight duty clamp, though.

Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release
clamps and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al.Â* If anything, I'd
say the the hf ones - those sold now - are heftier.Â* I use them to
clamp all manner of things.

And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90
degrees to the bar.

IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure
is applied.Â* That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly
positioned on the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the
clamp head perpendicular to the work.


I'm not sure what you're talking about.Â* The above doesn't make a
lot of
sense to me.
Just so it's clear what I'm talking about, here's a picture of the
issue.
http://mikedrums.com/HF_Bar_Clamp.JPG

It might make more sense if you were talking about quick release
clamps like
this...
https://shop.harborfreight.com/media...37_zzz_500.jpg



It might make more sense if you read the subject line and look at that
clamp.


The end jaw doesn't even *start out* at 90degrees to the bar with no
pressure at all.
With pressure applied, it gets worse.
This is completely unacceptable and in my mind renders the product
defective as to its sole purpose.

It really doesn't matter if the jaw is at 90 degrees or not as long
as you
can set the clamp so that the area applying the pressure is where you
want
it.

No special technique or tool modification needed.


Wow.
I don't even know how to reply to that with anything other than laughter.
Just never mind.Â* You go ahead and use them and enjoy.


Actually Mike, glue a dowel onto thatÂ* pad, that will ride centered on a
3/4 piece of wood. It will center the pressure every time and save the
clamp..Â* Or thow it away. Or strip it for parts.


I believe I already stated they were only good for scrap metal. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/18/2018 2:23 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
They suck.

Yep. Toss my hat in with yours. They worked OK for a short while, but after that they found different ways to fail.

The only thing worse they sell in that line at HF? Those fricking squeeze clamps. I purchased carefully in the store, and within one job, all six clamps I bought wouldn't compress //at all//.

I've been using pipe clamps for 60 years, same clamps too, can't over
torque them and they work fine for cabinet makers all over the world for
as long as they've been making them. (mine were my dads, and are
probably over 70 years old.)

I bought 4 of the HF ratcheting squeeze clamps a while ago, under 3
bucks a piece. I didn't expect them to last, and they didn't. First the
plastic trigger pin broke, so I drilled the handle and put in a machine
screw. Then, the plastic end bracket cracked, so I replaced with
hardwood. Then, the plastic cam in the handle broke, so I beefed it up
with epoxy. Now the clamps pass as a light duty clamps and I use them
quite a bit. The weak point now might be the epoxy cam clamp thing-ee.
Been holding up but I try not to use all my strength in use.

Here is a picture of two of the fixes, I didn't bother taking the handle
apart to show the epoxy reinforcement.

http://jbstein.com/Flick/HFClamp.jpg

I only wasted my time with them for the challenge, and fill up some
putzing around time. People building stuff for a living shouldn't waste
their time. People like me that quit building stuff and would rather
putz around, well it's something to do. Had they put 50 cents worth of
metal where they fail, they would work ok, but what fun would that be.
As it was, I was IMPRESSED you could take the handle apart with screws.



--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 12:59:24 PM UTC-5, Jack wrote:


I bought 4 of the HF ratcheting squeeze clamps a while ago, under 3
bucks a piece. I didn't expect them to last, and they didn't. First the
plastic trigger pin broke, so I drilled the handle and put in a machine
screw. Then, the plastic end bracket cracked, so I replaced with
hardwood. Then, the plastic cam in the handle broke, so I beefed it up
with epoxy.

"This is my favorite hammer. I've replaced the handle three times and the
head twice. Love this thing."

;-)

On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:42:06 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 1/18/2018 8:34 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 14:53:14 -0500, "dadiOH" wrote:


"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news On 1/18/18 10:13 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 8:46:35 PM UTC-6, DerbyDad03 wrote:
They suck.

I look at HF bar clamps as exactly what they are, inexpensive clamping
tools. I could get frosted if I paid $20+ ea for them.
But they are around a quarter of that. If one breaks, I can still
buy two more for the cost of a "Name" brand and be ahead.

Then there is the fact I have a LOT of them and have had no
problems. Could it be that those who are having the problems are
simply over stressing what should be a light duty clamp?


What's alight duty clamp, though.

Beats me, I see little to no difference between the HF quick release clamps
and equivalent ones from Jorgenson et al. If anything, I'd say the the hf
ones - those sold now - are heftier. I use them to clamp all manner of
things.

Not sure what a "quick release" clamp is (that's what the HF bar
clamps do when the casting breaks ;-) but the HF clamps like the Irwin
Gorilla using a wine glass
Quick Clamps aren't worth spit, either. It's not that they're light
duty. They wouldn't work as paper clips.
So only Festool, Fein , Bessey are tools worthy?


And shouldn't the jaws of even a light duty clamp stay at 90 degrees to
the bar.

IME, no clamps like this do that because the bar flexes as pressure is
applied. That's no problem as long as the clamp is properly positioned on
the work piece; i.e., if you don't try to make the clamp head perpendicular
to the work.

Bessey K-Body clamps are pretty good. Even my Irwin Heaavy Duty Quick
Clamps are a *lot* better. In fact the Irwins are the go-to setup
clamps.

So the word Heavy Duty doesn't mean a thing to you? You consider the
light duty not up to the task, because they don't do what the heavy are
capable of?

The point was that, even being one-hand squeeze clamps, they can
deliver a *lot* more force than the subject POS bar clamps. Many here
are denigrating the squeeze clamps but the Irwin 300s and 600s are
damn nice clamps. Haven't broken one yet.

On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 6:06:58 PM UTC-6, wrote:

The point was that, even being one-hand squeeze clamps, they can
deliver a *lot* more force than the subject POS bar clamps. Many here
are denigrating the squeeze clamps but the Irwin 300s and 600s are
damn nice clamps. Haven't broken one yet.

I have a lot of "squeeze" or trigger clamps, and I love them. I use them all the time for all kinds of stuff, they are literally another hand for me.

12 - 16' rip on the sawhorses and your helper is on the scaffold? Clamp one side, rip to the clamp, move the clamp behind you and finish your cut. Need to hold a template in place (like the aforementioned Kreg jig)? Clamp it down so that the bars are on the underside. I use them to hold material in place to sand, to hold pieces together that I am gluing, hold up long material so I can start nailing and work my way to the clamp. The list goes on.

You are right that they hold well. Small glue ups are nothing for them, and I use them so much a few of my carpentry-centric contractor friends now carry them.

I have had excellent luck with the DeWalt brand of clamps. Every Christmas HD has the 4 pack of large and small clamps on sale as stocking stuffers and buy them when they are on sale whether I need them or not when they mark them down after the holiday. Usually get them for about $19 - $20:

https://goo.gl/R9g88f

Likewise with Irwin brand which is usually at Lowes, which their clamps is one of the few things that Irwin makes that I would buy.

I have a couple of 36" triggers (DeWalt makes a 50"!), but rarely use them. If I am going that big I usually drag out all my cabinet clamps as I am in a project.

Robert

On 1/22/18 3:10 AM, wrote:
On Sunday, January 21, 2018 at 6:06:58 PM UTC-6,
wrote:

The point was that, even being one-hand squeeze clamps, they can
deliver a *lot* more force than the subject POS bar clamps. Many
here are denigrating the squeeze clamps but the Irwin 300s and
600s are damn nice clamps. Haven't broken one yet.

I have a lot of "squeeze" or trigger clamps, and I love them. I use
them all the time for all kinds of stuff, they are literally another
hand for me.

12 - 16' rip on the sawhorses and your helper is on the scaffold?
Clamp one side, rip to the clamp, move the clamp behind you and
finish your cut. Need to hold a template in place (like the
aforementioned Kreg jig)? Clamp it down so that the bars are on the
underside. I use them to hold material in place to sand, to hold
pieces together that I am gluing, hold up long material so I can
start nailing and work my way to the clamp. The list goes on.

You are right that they hold well. Small glue ups are nothing for
them, and I use them so much a few of my carpentry-centric
contractor friends now carry them.

I have had excellent luck with the DeWalt brand of clamps. Every
Christmas HD has the 4 pack of large and small clamps on sale as
stocking stuffers and buy them when they are on sale whether I need
them or not when they mark them down after the holiday. Usually get
them for about $19 - $20:

https://goo.gl/R9g88f

Likewise with Irwin brand which is usually at Lowes, which their
clamps is one of the few things that Irwin makes that I would buy.

I have a couple of 36" triggers (DeWalt makes a 50"!), but rarely
use them. If I am going that big I usually drag out all my cabinet
clamps as I am in a project.

Robert


I have so many of those, I couldn't count.
When you work solo as much as I do, they end up being as ubiquitous as
tape measures or cordless drills. I have several everywhere I work--
the shop, the sharn, the van, and the truck-- so they are always there
when I need them.

Whenever they have a stupid cheap deal on the four-pack of little ones,
I buy a set just to rotate through the heard or to have hanging
somewhere convenient.

Irwin makes one that has jaws like a cabinet clamp. I have 2 and they
are really well made, functional, and surprisingly strong. The jaws
have a switch that lets them rotate on an axis (like usual) or lock at
90 degrees for parallel clamping.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.


not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
hurting badly

we are heading into a major correction

i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
amazon

some questions to ponder

who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
i think they charge sales tax now

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

not a level playing field for sure and the small business cannot
compete when the competition gets subsidized to ship free and gets
sweetheart deals to open new warehouses or new hqs

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.

They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.

Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800
pyotr filipivich wrote:

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

is that the prime subscription

i was thinking more of the spend this much and get free shipping

some independent sellers actually bear the cost which is crazy
you are competing for pennies or at a loss

they also convinced some independents to ship their product to an
amazon warehouse then later they began charging them for storing
them in the warehouse

extorting just like a criminal organization


They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but
they would not be the first.

maybe they did and maybe they are not the first but nothing is free

someone is bearing that cost for usps it is most likely the tax
payer and for ups maybe the unions and employees bear that or maybe
there are tax breaks for ups and so once again the tax payer aborbs
the cost

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 17:47:58 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800
pyotr filipivich wrote:

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

is that the prime subscription

i was thinking more of the spend this much and get free shipping

Even with punctuation, the above wouldn't make any sense.

some independent sellers actually bear the cost which is crazy
you are competing for pennies or at a loss

Do you not understand the concept of competition? If you don't want
to sell on Prime or include the cost of shipping in your sales price,
don't. If you don't want to sell on Amazon, don't. You're free to
run your business as you see fit.

they also convinced some independents to ship their product to an
amazon warehouse then later they began charging them for storing
them in the warehouse

Because it saves them money. Duh. Come on. Think! If it doesn't
save them money, they wouldn't do it.

extorting just like a criminal organization

Utter nonsense.

They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but
they would not be the first.

maybe they did and maybe they are not the first but nothing is free

Of course not. You're paying in the cost of the product.

someone is bearing that cost for usps it is most likely the tax
payer and for ups maybe the unions and employees bear that or maybe
there are tax breaks for ups and so once again the tax payer aborbs
the cost

The unions are going to pay for Amazon to ship stuff? You're funny!

On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.


not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
hurting badly

we are heading into a major correction

What kind of correction? In the stock market?

Please explain what you see that leads you to believe that.


i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
amazon

Is that a standalone statement or is it supposed to be connected to
your "correction prediction"? If the statements are connected, please
explain why you think empty stores are going to lead to a "correction",
after you explain what type of correction you are talking about and why
you expect one.


some questions to ponder

who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
i think they charge sales tax now

They've always charged sales tax. It depends on the type of sale and the
location of where the item is being shipped. When they don't charge tax,
it's on the purchaser to pay it.

Read up on "use tax".


who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

You obviously don't know how "free shipping" actually works. You, I and
everyone else who buys stuff on line are paying for it.


not a level playing field for sure and the small business cannot
compete when the competition gets subsidized to ship free and gets
sweetheart deals to open new warehouses or new hqs

Any business that can prove (well, at least convince them) that they will
substantially improve the local economy can get a sweetheart deal. Sports
stadiums, headquarters that brings people to hotels and restaurants, etc.
I'm not saying it's 100% right, but you can't just blame Amazon when it
happens with many different types of businesses.

On 1/22/18 7:38 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.


It's a lot more than just free shipping. There's a lot of online
content available.
Also, cheaper to pay by the year.


They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.

Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.


They may be the only thing besides junk mail keeping the USPS afloat.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:52:23 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 1/22/18 7:38 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.


It's a lot more than just free shipping. There's a lot of online
content available.
Also, cheaper to pay by the year.

All correct. I was responding to the letter of the post.


They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.

Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.


They may be the only thing besides junk mail keeping the USPS afloat.

The only thing keeping them afloat is the taxpayer.

On 1/22/2018 2:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.


not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
hurting badly

we are heading into a major correction

i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
amazon

True many of the big box stores already did the major damage.

some questions to ponder

who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
i think they charge sales tax now

who let them ship for free

There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.
So prime is often higher priced to cover shipping.
If you are not a prime customer and reach the free shipping, you are
paying for it, it's built into the cost.

someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too
Now Amazon is considering eliminating them. They have Jets, Trucks.. etc.

not a level playing field for sure and the small business cannot
compete when the competition gets subsidized to ship free and gets
sweetheart deals to open new warehouses or new hqs









--
Jeff

On 1/22/18 10:00 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 1/22/2018 2:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.


not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
hurting badly

we are heading into a major correction

i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
amazon

True many of the big box stores already did the major damage.

some questions to ponder

who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
i think they charge sales tax now

who let them ship for free

There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.

I have not found that to be the case.
Do you have any examples?
Double the price? Really?
A good deal of the Prime products are stored at their "local" warehouses
which is one reason the shipping cost can be so low-- it's already close
to you.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:38:18 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.

My lake of clarity. I pay by the year, so It works out to $9 a
month for me, including tax.

They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.

Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.

And this is not exactly news.

As I explained to a friend years ago - all you have to do is hired
a couple hundred thousand people, not die, and be able to plunk down
the cash to hire consultants at a $100,000 a shot, and you too can get
all sorts of tax breaks.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 22:11:21 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:52:23 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 1/22/18 7:38 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.


It's a lot more than just free shipping. There's a lot of online
content available.
Also, cheaper to pay by the year.

All correct. I was responding to the letter of the post.


They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.

Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.


They may be the only thing besides junk mail keeping the USPS afloat.

The only thing keeping them afloat is the taxpayer.

That is the way it has been since it was a Federal Agency and the
largest employer in the land.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

writes:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.

Annual prime is $99 ($8.25/mo). The price for monthly did
just go up, but annual stayed the same.


They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.

Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.

Reports from someone credible? The Drumpf doesn't qualify.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:00:23 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

True many of the big box stores already did the major damage.

that and the change of hands of a lot of real estate upward to the small
percentage that already owned so much during the last bust

then once they own it they either leave those properties empty or ask
rents that are unsustainable and even take a portion of net profits
from the small retailers as part of the rent or lease


There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.
So prime is often higher priced to cover shipping.
If you are not a prime customer and reach the free shipping, you are
paying for it, it's built into the cost.


no
there is free shipping on amazon without prime

you spend over some amount and then the free shipping kicks in
not for all products as not all sellers offer it because it comes out
of the pocket of the seller

have you sold a lot on amazon

Now Amazon is considering eliminating them. They have Jets, Trucks..
etc.

trying to but remains to be seen

On 1/22/2018 9:47 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Monday, January 22, 2018 at 2:52:22 PM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.


not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
hurting badly

we are heading into a major correction

What kind of correction? In the stock market?

Please explain what you see that leads you to believe that.


i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
amazon

Is that a standalone statement or is it supposed to be connected to
your "correction prediction"? If the statements are connected, please
explain why you think empty stores are going to lead to a "correction",
after you explain what type of correction you are talking about and why
you expect one.


some questions to ponder

who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
i think they charge sales tax now

They've always charged sales tax. It depends on the type of sale and the
location of where the item is being shipped. When they don't charge tax,
it's on the purchaser to pay it.

They didn't always. NJ forced them to.

Read up on "use tax".


who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

You obviously don't know how "free shipping" actually works. You, I and
everyone else who buys stuff on line are paying for it.
+1 yep, nothing is really free.


not a level playing field for sure and the small business cannot
compete when the competition gets subsidized to ship free and gets
sweetheart deals to open new warehouses or new hqs

Any business that can prove (well, at least convince them) that they will
substantially improve the local economy can get a sweetheart deal. Sports
stadiums, headquarters that brings people to hotels and restaurants, etc.
I'm not saying it's 100% right, but you can't just blame Amazon when it
happens with many different types of businesses.



--
Jeff

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:24:27 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 22:11:21 -0500 typed in
rec.woodworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 20:52:23 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 1/22/18 7:38 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.


It's a lot more than just free shipping. There's a lot of online
content available.
Also, cheaper to pay by the year.

All correct. I was responding to the letter of the post.


They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.

Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.


They may be the only thing besides junk mail keeping the USPS afloat.

The only thing keeping them afloat is the taxpayer.

That is the way it has been since it was a Federal Agency and the
largest employer in the land.

The USPS has *always* been a federal agency but it has not always had
a mandate to pay for its way. If it can't meet its obligations, it's
time to shut it down.

On Tue, 23 Jan 2018 14:28:13 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

writes:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
11:52:16 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them ship for free
someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

No, Prime is more than $9 (I think it just went up to $13) but they do
free shipping on orders greater than $50, also.

Annual prime is $99 ($8.25/mo). The price for monthly did
just go up, but annual stayed the same.

The phrase was $9 per month. He didn't say it was $99/yr. There is a
difference.


They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but they
would not be the first.

Yes, there are reports that they have a real sweetheart deal with
USPS, subsidized by everyone in the US.

Reports from someone credible? The Drumpf doesn't qualify.

Don't be stupid. You won't believe anything I find, so look it up
yourself. It's pretty simple, though I'm sure you'll find some
leftist site that will blame it on Trump. Idiot.

On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:00:23 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 1/22/2018 2:52 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 21 Jan 2018 10:45:39 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

Side issue: Amazon is ending the America that I knew. They are in
effect becoming a monopoly, and forcing many stores to close. While I
am not a shopper, nor is my wife, all these empty stores are very
noticeable. This will have repercussions in the building industry.


not disagreeing with the symptoms and retail across the board is
hurting badly

we are heading into a major correction

i think many of the empty stores would have become empty without
amazon

True many of the big box stores already did the major damage.

some questions to ponder

who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
i think they charge sales tax now

who let them ship for free

There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.
So prime is often higher priced to cover shipping.
If you are not a prime customer and reach the free shipping, you are
paying for it, it's built into the cost.

someone has to pay for the cost to ship
maybe amazon absorbed some of it but usps and others must have been
bullied into absorbing the costs too
Now Amazon is considering eliminating them. They have Jets, Trucks.. etc.

It's the "last mile" that they need USPS for (note that FedEx uses the
USPS the same way). They've already set up their distribution centers
near USPS sorting facilities so they can inject the parcels directly
into the processing stream, saving half the shipping.

Electric Comet on Mon, 22 Jan 2018
17:47:58 -0800 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
On Mon, 22 Jan 2018 15:55:57 -0800
pyotr filipivich wrote:

Amazon charges $9 a month for "free" shipping.

is that the prime subscription

Yep. Not sure how it works out practically (am I buying more
often because of "free" shopping, vs "saving up purchases" to qualify
for "free" shipping.?).

i was thinking more of the spend this much and get free shipping

some independent sellers actually bear the cost which is crazy
you are competing for pennies or at a loss

they also convinced some independents to ship their product to an
amazon warehouse then later they began charging them for storing
them in the warehouse

extorting just like a criminal organization


They may have cut a deal with UPS/USPS for a discount, but
they would not be the first.

maybe they did and maybe they are not the first but nothing is free

someone is bearing that cost for usps it is most likely the tax
payer and for ups maybe the unions and employees bear that or maybe
there are tax breaks for ups and so once again the tax payer aborbs
the cost









--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

woodchucker on Mon, 22 Jan 2018 23:00:23 -0500
typed in rec.woodworking the following:

who let them operate with out charging sales tax for so long
i think they charge sales tax now

who let them ship for free

There's no free shipping. Look at the prime price, it's much higher
sometimes double the price of other vendors through Amazon.
So prime is often higher priced to cover shipping.
If you are not a prime customer and reach the free shipping, you are
paying for it, it's built into the cost.

Prime is now a wonderful bundle of services. Not only can you get
streaming movies, or music or ebooks, but it also includes shipping of
actual physical media. Like books, records and DVDs.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?